CANADA HOUSE 0F COMMONS DEBATES OFFCIAL REPORT SECOND SESSION-TWENTY- SECOND PARLIAMENT 3-4 ELIZABETH II BEING THE 97TH SESSION FOR THE PERIOD 1867-1955 VOLUME 1, 1955 COMPRISING THE PERIOD PROM THE SEVENTH DAY 0F JANUARY, 1955, TO THE ELEVENTH DAY 0F FEBRUARY, 1955, INCLUSIVE INDEX ISSUED IN A SEPARATE VOLUME EDMOND CLOUTIER, C.M.G., O.A., D.S.P. QUEEN'S PEXNTER AWD CONTItOLLEE OF STATIONERT oTTAwA, 1955 CANADA »o~uuet ofEommom; -Mdit.5 OFFICIAL REPORT Speaker: The Honourable L. Rene Beaudoin Friday, January 7, 1955 SECOND SESSION-TWENTY-SECOND PARLIAMENT-OPENING The parliament which. had been prorogued on the twenty-sixth day of June, 1954, met this day at Ottawa for the dispatch of business. The house met at two o'clock, the Speaker in the chair. Mr. Speaker read a communication from the secretary to, the Governor General, announcing that His Excellency the Governor General wouid proceed to the Senate cham- ber at two o'ciock on thîs day, for the purpose of formally opening the session of the domin- ion parliament. A message was deivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows: Mr. Speaker. Ris Excellency the Governor Generai desires the immediate attenciance of this honour- able house in the chamber of the honourable the Senate. Accordingiy, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber. And the bouse being returned to, the Com- mons chamber: VACANCIES Mr. Speaker: I have the honour to inform the bouse that during the recess I have received communications from several mem- bers- notifying me that vacancies had occurred ini the representation, as follows: 0f Hon. D. C. Abbott, member for the electoral district of St. Antoine-Westmount, consequent upon his acceptance of an office of emolument under the crown. 0f Hon. Lionel Chevrier, member for the electoral district of Stormont, ýconsequent upon bis acceptance of an office of emolument under the crown. 0f Hon. Brooke Ciaxton, member for the electoral district of St. Lawrence-St. George, by resignation. 0f Rodney Adamson, Esquire, member for the electoral district of York West, by decease. 0f Lionel Conacher, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Trinity, by decease. 50432--l 0f Robert James Wood, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Selkirk, by decease. Accordingly I addressed my warrants to the chief electoral officer for the issue of new writs of election for the said electoral districts. NEW MEMBERS Mr. Speaker: I have the honour to inform the bouse that during tbe recess the Clerk of the House bas received from the chief elec- toral officer certificates of the election and return of the foiiowing members, viz.: 0f Claude S. Ricbardson, Esquire, for the electoral district of St. Lawrence-St. George. 0f Albert Peter Lavigne, Esquire, for the electoral district of Stormont. 0f John Borden Hamilton, Esquire, for the electoral district of York West. 0f Hon. George C. Marier, for the electoral district of St. Antoine-Westmount. 0f Donald D. Carrick, Esquire, for the electoral district of Trinity. 0f William Bryce, Esquire, for the electoral district of Selkirk. NEW MEMBERS INTRODUCED Hon. George C. Marier, member for the electoral district of St. Antoine-Westmount, introduced by Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent and Rigbt Hon. C. D. Howe. Donald D. Carrick, Esquire, member for tbe electoral district of Trinity, introduced by Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent and Hon. L. B. Pearson. Albert Peter Lavigne, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Stormont, introduced by Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent and Hon. J. J. McCann. Claude S. Richardson, Esquire, member for the electoral district of St. Lawrence-St. George, introduced by Right Hon.- L. S. St. Laurent and Hon. Aicide Cote. John Borden Hamilton, Esquire, member for the electorai district of York West, intro- duced by Hon. W. Eari Rowe and Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker. William Bryce, Esquire, member for the electoral district of Selkirk, introduced by Mr. M. J. Coldwell and Mr. Alistaîr Stewart (Winnipeg North). HOUSE OF COMMONS House of Commons HOUSE OF COMMONS REFERENCE TO ILLNESS OF LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, I am sure that hon. members in every part of this chamber would wish me to say what is in all our minds iat this time, and that is how sorry we all are that the Leader of the Opposition, the Hon. George A. Drew, is unable to be present with us at this opening of parliament. We were all deeply shocked when we heard last November that he had been stricken suddenly by a serious illness. Fortunately after some days of anxiety we were relieved to hear that he had safely passed the critical phase of the malady. Subsequently from time to time we were most grateful to learn that he was making steady progress toward complete recovery although he had to remain in hospital for several weeks. All of us, his friends in this house-and I am sure this is also true of his hosts of friends outside of this house-sincerely hope that the present rest which his medical advisers have persuaded him to take will enable him to regain completely his strength and that it will not be long before his health and his usual vigour will have been fully restored and that he will be able to be back with us in the house. Although the request may be somewhat unusual I am sure that every one of us, wherever he sits in the house, would be grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, if you would in the meantime convey to Mr. Drew our most sincere greetings and good wishes. Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Acting Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I must take advan- tage of this opportunity to indicate the keen appreciation of the associates of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) on this side of the house of the kind good wishes which the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has so generously expressed today. I realize, as do many others, that it is a great tribute to the present-day efficiency of modern medical science that the Leader of the Opposition has been able to get through the very critical days of his illness. However, I am most happy to report, after having visited him yesterday, that he is making a very rapid recovery and indeed his health has been restored to a greater degree than I had expected to find. I feel most confident, and I am sure be does, as well as his doctors, that he will be returned to the health and vigour which the Prime Minister has indicated is his usual state of hea-ith. [Mr. Speaker.] OATHS OF OFFICE Righi Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 1, respecting the administration of oaths of office. Motion agreed to and bill read the first time. SPEECH FROM THE THRONE Mr. Speaker: I have the honour to inform the house that when the house did attend His Excellency the Governor General this day in the Senate chamber, His Excellency was pleased to make a speech to both houses of parliament. To prevent mistakes, I have obtained a copy, which is as follows: Honourable members of the Senate: Members of the House of Commons: It affords me great pleasure to greet you as you resume your parliamentary duties at the beginning of this new year. Since you last met, the people of Canada have been given an opportunity of extending once more an affectionate welcome to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth, the queen mother. They have also had the pleasure of greeting again the consort of our sovereign, the Duke of Edinburgh, who came to attend the British Empire and Commonwealth games held in Vancouver during the summer and to visit northern parts of Canada. While there is hopeful evidence that the increas- ing strength of the free world has lessened the likelihood of aggression, the terrible destruction that war would bring to North America and indeed to all mankind has been magnified by the increase in the number and effectiveness of atomic and thermonuclear weapons and the means of delivering them. My ministers are convinced that, while the resources of diplomacy must never be neglected in the search for peace, the efforts of the free nations in building their deterrent forces must be main- tained. To this end, Canada was represented at the London and Paris conferences which formulated an alternative to the European defence community and provided for the entry of the Federal Republie of Germany into the North Atlantic Treaty Organ- ization. You will be asked to approve the agree- ments reached at those meetings. Our country continues to give full support to the United Nations. The Canadian delegation took an important part in the deliberations of the recent meeting of the general assembly in New York. It is earnestly hoped that the adoption of the resolu- tion on disarmament introduced in the political committee by the Canadian delegation may lead to agreement on an effective system of international safeguards. While no final settlement has been reached in Korea, the lessening of the threat of renewed aggression in that area has made possible the with- drawal of a substantial portion of the Canadian forces. At the invitation of the Geneva conference Can- ada has accepted the heavy responsibility of serving on the armistice commissions which have been formed to supervise the restoration of peace in the associated states of Indo-China. Last autumn our nation was the host at the annual meeting of the consultative committee of the Colombo plan. You will be asked to approve Canada's continued participation in the plan as well as in the United Nations' technical assistance program. JANUARY 7, 1955 A meeting of commonwealth prime ministers will be held in London at the end of this month to con- sider a number of problems affecting the peoples of this great association of nations. My prime minister plans to attend this conference. During the summer arrangements were completed to permit the navigational facilities of the St. Law- rence river to be enlarged and a hydroelectric pro- ject to be undertaken in the international rapids section. Work on these two projects bas already begun and my ministers are convinced the stimulus to the national economy resulting from their construction will be shared in all parts of the country. Since you last met, Cape Breton island has been linked with the mainland by the new causeway which will be ready for service as soon as the ship canal has been bridged. It is expected that, in the course of the coming season, the new ferry between North Sydney and Port aux Basques will be in operation and the ferry service between Yarmouth and Bar Harbor started. Construction of a new ferry to operate between Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island will be undertaken early in the present year. To improve navigation on the Pacifie coast, you will be asked to make provision at this session for the removal of Ripple Rock. Canadians learned with deep regret of the loss of life and damage to property caused by two severe storms felt heavily in the province of Ontario and the province of Nova Scotia. An agreement has been reached with the province of Ontario to assist those persons whose homes were damaged or destroyed and assistance has been given under the Agricultural Prices Support Act to the producers of apples in Nova Scotia. You will be asked to make the necessary financial provision for these arrange- ments. The Disabled Persons Act which you passed at the last session was proclaimed to come into force at the beginning of the present year. The governments of all the provinces have announced their intention to participate in Implementing the program to assist those who are totally unable to care for themselves; and my ministers are now in a position to conclude the necessary federal-provincial agreements to bring this humanitarian measure into operation. Although the national economy is in a generally healthy condition, the relatively poor wheat crop is being reflected by a small decline in the total national income. Some unemployment of a regional and seasonal nature is being experienced. To help meet this situation work on public construction pro- jects already approved is being accelerated and you will be asked to make financial provision for con- struction in the programs of various departments and agencies on a scale that will make possible a substantial increase in the total expenditures for this purpose. The government proposes to introduce legislation immediately for the amendment of the Unemploy- ment Insurance Act to provide for an increase in the duration and scale of supplementary winter benefits. It is also proposing to introduce, during the session, broader amendments designed to make unemploy- ment insurance a more effective instrument in pro- viding financial support to unemployed workers. The National Housing Act, 1954, enacted early in the last session, which authorized lower down- payments and larger loans, and which enabled the chartered banks for the first time to make loans on the security of residential mortgages, bas been an important factor in stimulating the construction of a record number of bouses in the past year. The prospects are favourable for a high level of house building in 1955. It is proposed to bring into general operation on the first of February the provision of the act under which loans may be made for home improvements. In accordance with an undertaking given at the last 50433-li Speech from the Throne session, this section was proclaimed for small hold- ers under the Veterans' Land Act with effect from the first of this year. You will be asked to consider amendments to the Railway Act relating to the elimination of level crossings. The government alse hopes to lay before you during the present session a measure to con- solidate the legislation affecting the Canadian National Railways. Amendments to the Electricity and Fluid Exporta- tion Act and a measure to control works which affect the normal flow of rivers which cross the international boundary will be proposed for the pur- pose of ensuring that natural resources are developed in the best interests of the Canadian public. You will be asked to consider a measure to imple- ment a convention between Canada and the United States relating to fisheries research on the great lakes. You will also be asked to consider legislation to provide facilities for loans to fishermen similar to those provided to farmers by the Farm Improve- ment Loans Act. The government will submit amendments to the War Veterans Allowance Act to raise the basic rates as well as the ceiling on permissible incomes of recipients of allowances. You will also be asked to consider amendments to the Blind Persons Act, to lower the age of eligi- bility and raise the income ceilings. A measure which will provide for amendments to the National Defence Act and the Defence Services Pension Act will be placed before you. Legislation will be proposed to replace the Meat and Canned Foods Act by measures to provide for the inspection of meat and for the establishment of standards for all agricultural products. You will be asked to approve a convention signed by the members of the international civil aviation organization which fixes the responsibility for dam- age caused to third parties by foreign aircraft. A joint committee of both houses will be proposed to examine, in the light of the Municipal Grants Act and possible amendments thereto, the financial and other relationships of the government and the federal district commission with the city of Ottawa and neighbouring municipalities. Among other measures you will be asked to con- sider amendments to the Defence Production Act, the Government Employees Compensation Act, the Financial Administration Act, the Public Service Superannuation Act, the Historic Sites and Monu- ments Act, the Radio Act, the Territorial Lands Act, the Library of Parliament Act, the Canada Grain Act, the Northwest Territories Act, the Yukon Act, the Canada Shipping Act, the Emergency Gold Mining Assistance Act and to the Municipal Grants Act. Members of the House of Commons: You will be asked to make provision for the public service for the next fiscal year. Honourable Members of the Senate: Members of the House of Commons: I pray that Divine Providence may guide you in the discharge of your responsibilities. Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved: That the speech of His Excellency the Governor General to both bouses of parliament be taken into consideration later this day, and that this order have precedence over all other business, unless and until otherwise ordered, except introduction of bills and government notices of motions, until dis- posed of. Motion agreed to. HOUSE OF COMMONS Tributes to Deceased Members TRIBUTES TO DECEASED MEMBERS THE LATE ROBERT J. WOOD-THE LATE ROBERT FAIR Right Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (Prime Minister): Mr. Speaker, since we last met we have received the sad news of the death of two of our colleagues. I refer of course to Mr. Robert J. Wood, who represented the constituency of Selkirk, and Mr. Robert Fair, the member for Battle River-Camrose. Mr. Wood's death was an unexpected shock to his many friends both within and beyond this chamber. He appeared in excellent health and- spirits before he left the capital at the end of June and he was looking for- ward to the long drive home by automobile. Mr. Wood was born and raised on his father's farm at Teulon, Manitoba, and he was a resident of that province all his life. In addition to carrying on a successful business he served as reeve in Bifrost municipality at the early age of 31. Later he was chairman of the Teulon .chamber of commerce, and a member of the executive of the Manitoba associated cham- bers of commerce. He was first elected to the House of Com- mons in the general election of 1949, and he was given a renewed vote of confidence by his electors in 1953. Immediately after his arrival in Ottawa Mr. Wood became recog- nized by his colleagues as an assiduous and friendly member of this house. Although he did not participate frequently in debate, he served conscientiously on several committees and took most seriously his responsibilities to his constituents. Feeling himself very closely associated with them, he endeavoured at all times ta be their true representative both in this house and outside. I am sure I speak for ýall members of the house in saying that Robert Wood will be remembered with genuine affection and re- spect by all of us, and in extending sincere sympathy to Mrs. Wood and other members of the family in their bereavement. Mr. Robert Fair was among the first mem- bers of his party to be elected to this house in 1935. Since he first took his seat he gave unstintingly of himself in the service of his constituents. Their appreciation of his efforts was shown by his re-election at each of the four general elections since that date. Mr. Fair was an active debater and only ill health prevented him from taking his usual part in the deliberations of this house during the last session. As the representative of a prosperous farm- ing area, Mr. Robert Fair made his principal contribution in the agriculture committee and during the discussions of subjects related [Mr. St. Laurent.] to agriculture. He also took a keen and humane interest in legislation concerning war veterans and soldier settlers. I know, Mr. Speaker, that all members would wish to join with me in expressing sympathy to his leader in the loss of an esteemed colleague, as well as to Mrs. Fair and the other members of the family in their great loss. Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Acting Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wish to as- sociate myself with the remarks of the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) and I am sure I speak for all my colleagues on this side of the house when I express keen sympathy at the loss this country bas suffered in the death of these two gentlemen. I did not know Mr. Wood as well as I knew Mr. Fair, but I knew of his long and creditable record in public affairs. I know he was a very kind man and a loyal friend, and I am sure his companionship will be greatly missed by all members of the house. He was elected twice to this parliament, and on several occasions served in other capacities in his native province. I am certain all members will join with me in extending to Mrs. Wood and the family, to his former as- sociates here and in his riding, our keen sympathy and regret. Mr. Robert Fair was a member of this house for a longer period of time. He was, I believe, elected five times. He was an aggressive member and will be greatly missed by his associates. He was a kind man and yet at the same time be was vigorous and did not hesitate to say where he stood on matters that occupied his keen interest. I am sure veterans throughout the country will miss Robert Fair's representation in this parliament, and I know that his many friends in his riding will feel his loss very keenly. To his wife and family, on behalf of this group, I extend sincere sympathy. Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Rosetown-Biggar): Mr. Speaker, for those of us who have been here a long time these occasions of the meeting of parliament are occasions of a happy na- ture, but unfortunately they are often marred by the loss of one or more members of the house with whom we have been associated over a period of time. This meeting of parliament is no exception. In the loss of Mr. Wood the government and his friends in his constituency, together with his family, have lost a fine individual. It is true, as the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) said, that he did not take a very great part in the debates in this house, but nonetheless those of us who met him, and knew him, respected him and regret that he has passed away. JANUARY 7, 1955 We join with the Prime Minister, and the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe), in expressing to Mrs. Wood and the family our sincere sympathy in their great personal loss. We also extend to the Prime Minister and his colleagues our sympathy in the loss of one who was a faithful friend and col- league. Robert Fair came here in 1935, the same year as I, and during that time those of us who knew Robert Fair grew not only to respect him and admire his good qualities, but to like him. We shall miss his rich Irish wit and his brogue, and the soldier settlers in Canada will miss his very warm advocacy of their particular cause. We wish to record our appreciation of the work he did in this house. Though party lines often divide us, nonetheless we can respect those who with integrity advocate views that are not always consonant with those we hold ourselves. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, to Mrs. Fair and the family, who have watched him suffer over a period of time, and now know that suffering is ended, we wish to extend our sympathy in their loss, and to members of the Social Credit group we extend our sympathy in the loss of a good colleague and advocate of their views throughout the country. 'Mr. Solon E. Low (Peace River): Mr. Spea- ker, I wish to thank the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) and other hon. members for the kind words they had to utter about our very good friend and colleague, Robert Fair, and at the same time, on behalf of the Social Credit members of parliament, I would like to pay tribute to the sterling qualities of this good man whom we came to know and love through our long years of association with him. Bob, as he was called by all who knew him, was born in Keelogues, county Mayo, Ireland. He came to Canada in 1914 and settled in the Paradise Valley district about 45 miles south- east of Vermilion, in the province of Alberta, where, by hard work and good management, he was able to build up a very fine farm. He was intensely proud of his Irish blood, and lost no opportunity to pay tribute to his native land and the good qualities of Irishmen everywhere. But at the same time he had an intense love for Canada and an undivided loyalty to this his adopted land. Throughout his whole life he worked hard to make of Canada a place where every citizen could enjoy freedom, justice, and a good standard of living. Our friend Bob was mild, but doggedly per- sistent in everything he undertook to do. He was careful not to hurt those who were in Tributes to Deceased Members opposition to his ideas, and valued his friends highly. He was devoted to his work in and out of parliament, and to his constituents. He never spared himself in the 19 years that he represented his constituency in this house. Mr. Fair enjoyed robust health through- out his whole life, never having known a sick day until he was stricken about a year ago with what finally was diagnosed at Rochester as cancer of the pancreas. To all of us who knew how healthy and robust he really was, i.t was a shock to see how he went down under the onslaught of this terrible affliction. Mr. Fair suffered unusu- ally long with this particular disease, because it usually develops rapidly; but through it all he maintained high morale and a quiet determination to win in the battle for his life. To the very end he looked forward with hope and through it all exhibited unusual courage. These were characteristics of the man in everything that he undertook to do. By those who were with him in his last days I am advised that he had achieved peace of mind which, Mr Speaker, is a grea-t blessing. Bob had many friends and few, if any, enemies. He was beloved by all who knew him and those of us who are left will miss him sorely. We join with the Prime Minis- ter (Mr. St. Laurent) and with the others who have spoken so kindly, in once again expressing to Mrs. Fair, their two sons and the eight grandchildren, our deepest sym- pathy in their bereavement. In the second place I should like to join with the Prime Minister and the others who have spoken in paying tribute to our late departed friend, Mr. Wood from Selkirk. I did not, of course, know him as well as I knew Bob Fair, but from what I knew of him I loved him. I had the pleasure of meeting him on many an occasion during the time he was here since 1949. I bowled with him at times on bowling teams. I found him to be a congenial companion and a good sportsman, and I enjoyed being with him. I am sure that we all join in paying our deepest respect to his memory and in paying these tributes to a loyal follower of the Prime Minister, to whom we express our deep sympathy in his loss. To his family and those who are left be- hind we express our sympathy in the loss of a good husband and father. Hon. Stuari S. Garson (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of those in this house who are fellow members from the province of Manitoba, I should like to express our deep regret on the passing of the late Bert Wood. He was our faithful and just friend and, I think. the faithful and HOUSE 0F COMMONS Tributes to Deceased Members just friend of every persan with whom he was on ternis of intimacy in this house; cer- tainly he was recognized as such by hun- dreds of those citizens residing in the inter- lake area of Manitoba amongst whom he was born, lived a life of service and died. He was flot; much yaunger than his province. That means that he was born in that prov- ince in a pianeering community and lived the life of a pianeer under pioneer condi- tions until just recent years. I think it was probably due to that fact that he possessed the endearing qualities of a pioneer, the loy- alty ta which reference has already been made, and the fair-mindedness of a pianeer; and alsa those qualities of the pioncer which served bim in such good stead as a member of this house: courage, pertinacity and resourcefulness in the discharge of those duties other than making speeches whîch are such an important part of the work which a member does for his constituency. We in the west have a terni which we apply seriously only ta those for wbam we have a strang and peculiar combination of lave and respect. Ta us Bert Wood was and always will be remembered as an aid- timer. I tbink the same thing could be said of Robert Fair. He taa was an aid-timer. There are nat tao many of tbem. It is a great tribute ta them that we can think of them in these ternis. On behaif of my fellow members fram Manitoba I shauld lîke ta express ta the families af bath of these gentlemen the beart- feit sympathy wbich we feel and shall con- tinue ta feel for tbem in their lass. Mr. Daniel McIvor (Fort William): Mr. Speaker, I cannat allaw this appartunity ta pass withaut saying a brief word. I knew these two members as persanal friends. Day in and day out we met. We were like kindred spirits. At the funeral service at Stonewall 1 was greatly pleased ta see presenit 50 many members fram bath sides of the house and of the Senate. That fact tald its awn story. I met Bob Fair on the first day he came ino the house because I gat ta know that he was born flot far from wbere I was barn; and I knew that we did nat have tao many Christian Irisbmen in the hause. I found him ta be kind and considerate. Like Mr. Wood, Mr. Fair played the game in the way that it augbt ta be played. Bath men belanged ta aur bowling league. Bath men gave of their best ta wio; but if they did not win, tbey were happy ta congratulate the man who won. I cannat pay a better tribute ta any human martal than that which I am gaing ta pay ta these twu feilow members wben I say that I found them ta be Christian gentlemen in practice. [Mr. Garsan.] Mr. C. E. Johnsion moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting ta consider the following resolution: That it is expedient ta introduce a measure ta amend the Northwest Territories Act ta increase the sessional Indemnity of elected mexnbers af the Northwest Territories council. He said: His Exceflency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the su-bject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the bouse. Motion agreed ta. RAILWAY ACT INCREASE IN ANNUAL APPROPRIATION TO GRADE CROSSING FUND Righi Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (for th. Minister cf Transport) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting ta con- sider the following resolution: That it is expedient ta intraduce a measure ta amend the Railway Act fallowing the "Repart on the RaIlway-Highway Crossing Problem In Canada", made by the Board af Transport Cammissianers for Canada ta provide for an Increase In the annual appropriation ta the railway grade crassing fund £rom $1,000,000 ta $5,0O0,000 and for certain changes in connection with the administration ai the fund. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed ta. FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT AMENDMENT RESPECTING SALARY 0F AUDITOR GENERAL Righi Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (for th. Minister cf Finance) moved that the house go intQ committee at the next sitting 'ta consider the fahlowing resolution: That it is expedient ta Intraduce a measure ta amend the Financial Administration Act ta pravide that the Auditar General sha-h out of the con- saiidated revenue fund be paid a salary ai twenty thausand dollars Per annum with effect from Juiy 1, 1954. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acqualnted with the subi ect maitter of this resolution, recom- mends it ta the house. Motion agreed to. DEFENCE PRODUCTION ACT AMENDMENTS RESPECTINO SALARY 0F MINISTER AND EXPIRY 0F ACT Righi Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved that the house go into com- mittee ait the next sittlng ta consider the following resolution: That lt Is expedient ta introduce a measure to amend the Defence Production Act ta Increase the HOUSE OF COMMONS Proposed Legislation salary of the Minister of Defence Production from ten thousand dollars per annum to fifteen thousand and to repeal section 41 which provided for the expiry of the act on July 31, 1956. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed to. PUBLIC SERVICE SUPERANNUATION ACT EXTENSION OF BENEFITS AND CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION Righ± Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (for the Minisier of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Public Service Superannuation Act to extend the benefits and the application of the act, and to provide further for certain changes in con- sequence thereof and also in connection with the administration of the act. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed to. GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES COMPENSATION ACT EXTENSION OF BENEFITS AND CHANGES IN ADMINISTRATION Righi Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (for the Minister of Labour) moved that the house go inito committee at the next sitting to con- sider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Government Employees Compensation Act to extend the benefits of the act to certain per- sons in the service of Her Majesty who are not paid a direct wage or salary and to persons locally engaged outside of Canada; to provide for addi- tional benefits where an employee dies as the result of an accident while absent on duty from his usual place of employment; and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administra- tion of the act. He said: His Excellency the Governor Gen- eral, having been made acqu'ainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the house. Motion agreed to. CANADIAN FORCES ACT AMENDMENTS TO NATIONAL DEFENCE ACT AND DEFENCE SERVICES PENSION ACT Right Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (for the Minister of National Defence) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a measure respecting the Canadian forces to amend the [Mr. St. Laurent.] National Defence Act to provide for the reinstate- ment under certain circumstances of a member of the Canadian forces who has been released, to place members of the Canadian forces in the same posi- tion as civilians in respect of judicial process, and to make certain other amendments to the act; also to amend the Defence Services Pension Act with respect to the payment to women of pensions or gratuities under certain circumstances, to extend the provisions relating to the augmentation of pen- sion on re-enrolment, to extend the time within which an election may be made to count prior serv- ice, and to make certain other amendments to the act. He said: His Excellency the Governor Gen- eral, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the house. Motion agreed to. HISTORIC SITES AND MONUMENTS ACT AMENDMENTS RESPECTING DEFINITIONS, TRAVELLING EXPENSES, ETC. Righi Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (for the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution: That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Historie Sites and Monuments Act to amplify the definition of "historie place", to change slightly the representation of the board, and to pro- vide further for changes in the method and amount of payments to members appointed by the governor in council, of living and travelling expenses and to provide for the payment of stenographic allowances. He said: His Excellency the Governor Gen- eral, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed to. CANADA GRAIN ACT AMENDMENTS RESPECTING GRADES, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONERS AND SALARIES Right Hon. L. S. Si. Laurent (for the Minister of Trade and Commerce) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to consider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a measure respecting the Canada Grain Act to amend the statutory grades of western grain and eastern grain with respect to the grade No. 3 amber durum wheat and all grades of soybeans as recommended by the committee on western and eastern grain standards; to provide for the appointment of four in lieu of three assistant grain commissioners and to increase the annual salaries of the chief and other two commissioners from fourteen and twelve thousand dollars to fifteen and thirteen thousand five hundred dollars respectively. He said: His Excellency the Governor Gen- eral, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recommends it to the house. Motion agreed to. JANUARY 11, 1955 RADIO ACT AMENDMENTS RESPECTING RADIO ANTENNAE AND ADMINISTRATIVE CHANGES Righ± Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (for the Minister of Transport) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to con- aider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Radio Act to control the mechanical features of radio antennae for safety purposes and to provide for the appointment of inspectors in relation thereto; and to provide further for certain changes in connection with the administration of the act. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed to. NEW WESTMINSTER HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS MEASURE AUTHORIZI14G LOANS OF $200,000 BY MINISTER OF FINANCE Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (for the Minister of Transport) moved that the house go into committee at ithe next sitting to con- sider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a bill respecting the New Westminster harbour commissioners to authorize the Minister of Finance to make total loans of $200,000 to the corporation for the pur- noses mentioned in the said bill. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed to. GREAT LAKES FISHERIES MEASURE TO IMPLEMENT CONVENTION BETWEEN CANADA AND UNITED STATES SIGNED SEPTEMBER 10, 1954 Right Hon. L.' S. St. Laurent (for the Minister of Fisheries) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to con- aider the following resolution: That It is expedient to introduce a measure to implement the convention on great lakes fisheries between Canada and the United States, signed at Washington on the 10th of September, 1954, and to provide that the governor in council may make regulations for carrying out and giving effect to the provisions of the convention and anything done by the great lakes fisheries commission to be established thereunder. Proposed Legislation He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the house. Motion agreed to. MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT RETIRING ALLOWANCES ACT AMENDMENTS RESPECTING PAYMENT OF INTEREST AND COLLECTIONS Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (for the Minister of Finance) moved that the house go into committee at the next sitting to con- sider the following resolution: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to amend the Members of Parliament Retiring Allow- ances Act to provide that a withdrawal allowance payable under the act will include certain of the interest that has been paid on contributions and to provide further that where a member or a former member dies certain of the amounts which he may owe under the act will not be recovered. He said: His Excellency the Governor General, having been made acquainted with the subject matter of this resolution, recom- mends it to the bouse. Motion agreed to. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ORDER IN WHICH ITEMS OF BUSINESS TO BE CONSIDERED Mr. Speaker: By agreement announced last night by the acting leader of the house, it was agreed that today we would take up the first resolution in the name of the Minister of Labour in committee of the whole. l it agreed that I do now leave the chair for the house to resolve itself into committee of the whole? Mr. Fulton: Could we have orders of the day? Mr. Harris: We might consider it as a government order and postpone it until orders of the day have been called. Mr. Speaker: Is that agreed? Sone hon. Members: Agreed. TRANS-CANADA AIR LINES REFERENCE TO REPORTS OF NEAR ACCIDENTS On the orders of the day: Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops): I should like to ask the Minister of Transport whether he has received the report or has had his atten- tion drawn to reports to the effect that pilota of T.C.A. have reported a large number of near accidents of a nature similar to that which was reported at Moose Jaw recently. HOUSE OF COMMONS Inquiries of the Ministry If so, has the hon. gentleman anything he would care to add to the statement he made yesterday? Hon. George C. Marler (Minister of Trans- port): I may say that we have received none of the complaints to which the hon. member has alluded. If complaints are made by responsible individuals, we shall be glad to investigate them. ARTS, LETTERS AND SCIENCES INQUIRY AS TO SETTING UP OF CANADA COUNCIL On the orders of the day: Mr. R. R. Knight (Saskatoon): I should like to address to the Prime Minister a question of which I think he will not require notice. Has the government decided upon the setting up of the Canada Council as envisaged by the Massey report? If so, what progress has been made in that direction? Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): The government has not yet decided the question referred to by my hon. friend. WATER POLLUTION NORTH SASKATCHEWAN RIVER-CONFERENCES BETWEEN DOMINION AND PROVINCIAL GOVERNMENTS On the orders of the day: Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Alberi): I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Justice. In view of the fact that the pollution of the North Saskatchewan river is again at full height, is the minister in a position to advise what happened during the conferences between the dominion government and the provincial governments of Alberta, Saskat- chewan and Manitoba and also whether the people living on the North Saskatchewan river can expect any legislation at this session to make it an offence to cause wrongful pollu- tion of interprovincial streams? Hon. Stuari S. Garson (Minister of Justice): With regard to the first part of my hon. friend's question the answer is yes. With regard to the second part, no decision has been reached as regards such legislation at this session. LABOUR CONDITIONS RIGHT OF RAILWAY WORKERS TO STRIKE On the orders of the day: Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Has the minister been made aware of the concern felt [Mr. Fulton.] by the railway workers of Canada over the loss of their right to strike? Is the govern- ment taking steps either to assure these workers that they still have that right or to establish a satisfactory alternative? Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour): This question, I think, divides itself into two parts. In the first place the Minister of La- bour has been made aware of the concern which would be felt by the non-operating unions of the railways in the event they were deprived of the right to strike. In the second place I am sure my hon. friend has noted that the general conference committee of the non-operating unions of the railways have been meeting in Montreal recently and are discussing questions directly related to the second part of his question. In due course the Minister of Labour would expect to be told about the conclusions reached at these discussions and I do not think that in the meantime the Minister of Labour should anticipate these reports. WATER RESOURCES REPORTED CONSTRUCTION OF DAM ON ARROW LAKES On the orders of the day: Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West): I should like to direct a question to the Min- ister of Northern Affairs and National Re- sources. Has any minister of the government of British Columbia informed the minister, or any minister of the government of Can- ada, of the details of the proposed agreement between the government of British Columbia and the Kaiser Aluminum and Chemical Corporation for the construction of a dam on the Arrow lakes? Hon. Jean Lesage (Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources): I wish to thank the hon. member for having given me notice of his question. As far as I am concerned, the answer is in the negative. As for my colleagues, I have inquired and as far as I can ascertain the, answer is also in the negative. Mr. Herridge: Can the minister tell the bouse if the Canadian section of the inter- national joint commission has received any information as to the details of this proposed agreement? Mr. Lesage: According to my information the chairman of the Canadian section of the international joint commission, General Mc- Naughton, received a telegram dated Sep- tember 17, 1954, from Mr. Sommers, minister JANUARY IL. 1955 of lands and f orests of British Columbia. It was sent in the afternoon and reads as follows: Government of British Columnbia proposes to enter into agreement with Kaiser Aluminum and Chemi- cal Corporation allowlng sald company to erect dam on lower Arrow lakes to store 3 million acre feet of water. Payment for saine to be 20 per cent of power generated on American aide delivered free to British Columbia. According to my information, General Mc- Naughton answered this telegram on the morning of the l8th and suggested that no action be taken before the British Columbia government receives a copy of the report of new topographical studies of the Columbia system. which were being made. The very saine day Mr. Sommers answered General McNaughton by telegram. telling hlm that British Columbia and Kaiser had already executed the agreement. 1 think that was the wording. GRAIN FINAL PAYMENT ON 1953-54 WHEAT POOL On the orders of the day: Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia>: 1 should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. Can the minister say whether, as a method of helping to relieve the critical cash shortage amongst western farmers, the final payment on the 1953-54 wheat pool wiil be made at an early date? Right Hon. C. D. Howe een reconimendations by the national employment =nmmission, the Sirois commission and others, that ýhe dominion should assume responsibility for lecessary relief to the employable unemployed. The Address-Mr. Green That, 1 would point out, is the group about which Premier Bennett wired: It has been generally suggested that the dominion should accept this obligation as part of any general settiement with the provinces. The dominion has corne to a settiement with ail the provinces with the exception of Quebec, and apparenitly there is about to be some settiement with that province. The "green book" proposais went on: As a part of the general arrangement with the provincial governments, the dominion goverornent now proposes to establish a practicable and compre- hensive system of assistance to able-bodied unem- ployed persons as soon as possible, rather than walting until the need for It actuafly arises. This, remnember, was in 1945: It is thought necessary not to permit the recur- rence of the problems of administration being separated from financial responsibility, and to avoid the makeshift arrangements and controversy with provincial governnients which otherwise would bealmost certain to recur under the old methods ofproviding relief even though the nuxnber of personsinvolved were small. I would point out that we are now having this very controversy which the dominion suggested ini 1945 shouid be avoided. The proposais go on: The dominion is therefore accompanying its pro- posal for general acceptance of responsibility with a concrete plan for Its implementation in the fieldof assistance for employable unemployed persons. One further paragraph of significance to be found on page 43 reads as follows: The plan proposes acceptance of dominionresponsibility for unemployed employables, andprovincial and local responsibility for unemploy- ables. This government is today repudiating the stand it took in 1945. This federal govern- ment has an obligation with regard to the employable unempioyed. In the case of British Columbia most of them corne from outside the province. As a resuIt of the refusai of the Prime Minister to accept any responsibiiity, the premier of British Colum- bia has stated, "Ail right, we wiil pay 80 per cent of the relief. The city can pay the other 20 per cent, but it wili be paid oniy to those recipients who have estabiished resi- dence of one year in the province of British Columbia". Ail the rest are 'thrown on the charitable organizations. I suggest the time has corne for this goverrnent to accept its responsibility in 'this regard. This trouble wiii probabiy arise every year, and. this is only the start of it. Sooner or later the prob- lem will have to be faced by the dominion government. Now is the time to take action. The second question bas to do with Colum- bia river power. There is a reference to that HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Green in the speech from the throne, although it does not mention the Columbia river. I refer to the paragraph which reads as follows: Amendments to the Electricity and Fluid Exporta- tion Act and a measure to control works which affect the normal flow of rivers which cross the international boundary will be proposed for the purpose of ensuring that natural resources are developed in the best interests of the Canadian public. The very last line of that paragraph seems to indicate that the government has now adopted a Canada-first policy. If that were the whole story I would approve, and I am very glad that at last the government seems to be moving in the direction of adopting our Canada-first policy. Hon. members will recall how in recent years we have had to hammer this govern- ment night in and night out, during private members' hour, to prevent it from supporting a proposal to build a natural gas pipe line from southern Alberta down into the United States at the nearest point to serve the great cities of Washington and Oregon, with only a stub line up to Vancouver and possibly one to Trail. As a result of a filibuster staged largely by this party, with the help of the C.C.F., and the former Liberal member for Fraser Valley, George Cruickshank, the gov- ernment was eventually convinced that a Canada-first policy was advisable. Just a few weeks ago we had an announcement that natural gas is to be piped from the Peace river country down through the centre of the prov- ince of British Columbia to serve practically all the cities in that province, with the surplus going into the United States. We also had some trouble with regard to a natural gas pipe line from Alberta to eastern Canada, and it took quite a lot of pressure and argument to convince the government this should be an all-Canadian line. However, it finally adopted that policy. In so far as the plans of the government with regard to the Columbia river system are concerned, we approve of anything which means the use of Canadian resources by the Canadian people. But I am afraid the story is not quite that simple. I believe this pro- posal is also designed as a club with which to beat the government of the province of British Columbia. That government, rightly or wrongly, has come to an agreement with the Kaiser interests in the United States under which there is to be a dam constructed across the foot of the Arrow lakes so that water will be stored in the Arrow lakes as a result of which more power will be available for United States plants south of the line. The dominion government has taken objec- tion to this plan, and we now have the picture [Mr. Green.] of the two governments through their respec- tive ministers calling each other names. For example, I have here the Vancouver Sun for November 25, 1954, carrying the headline: "Ottawa Dam Stand called 'Cheap Trick'." That is a statement by Premier Bennett. Then we have a statement by his minister of lands on November 30. The report of his speech carries the heading: "Opponents of Dam 'Lack Information'." It adds: "Lands Minister Charges Ottawa Veto would be 'Denial of Rights' of B.C." Then we have Ottawa moving into the picture. I have here a dispatch dated Novem- ber 22, 1954, from Warren Baldwin, who we all know is one of the most responsible news- papermen in Canada. The heading reads, "Ottawa Moves to Block B.C.-Kaiser Power Deal" with the subheading "New Statute Being Drafted to Provide Authority." Finally we have the old master, the Min- ister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), turning all his guns on the government of British Columbia in a statement dated Decem- ber 30, 1954. It reads: "B.C.'s Kaiser Dam Project 'Cockeyed' says Howe." This is another dispatch from Ottawa by Mr. Baldwin: Trade Minister C. D. Howe Wednesday described the agreement between the B.C. government and the Kaiser interests in the United States for a storage dam without on-site power on the Arrow lakes as "a cockeyed and improvident deal." A war in print has been waged in the press between the two governments. The premier of British Columbia is sitting there ready to go to the courts about this issue and Ottawa is prepared to beat him into sub- mission. I point out, Mr. Speaker, that power on the Columbia river system in Canada can only be developed by co-operation between the two governments. The main source of power is to be a dam at Mica creek up above Revelstoke on the Big Bend. That is certainly in British Columbia and the provincial gov- ernment will certainly be the authority to deal with that dam. The same British Columbia government has dealt with the huge project at Kitimat. That was not the business of the federal gov- ernment at all. There must be co-operation between the two governments. I believe that both sides are sincere. The premier of British Columbia believes that he is making a deal which is for the benefit of his province and is doing no harm to the rest of Canada. The ministers here believe that the deal is not a good one and that it should be stopped. Let us admit that there is sincerity on both sides. All I wish to emphasize is that this fighting attitude is helping no one and is only going to make it more difficult to have the Columbia river system properly de- veloped in so far as power is concerned. JANUARY 12, 1955 Our main responsibility in this House of Commons is to see where parliament fits into the picture. Sa far we have only h'ad news- paper reports. We have had shots from both sid'es. With the exception of the St. Lawrence, the Columbia river is the mast important river in this country s0 far as power is concerned. In fact I believe that the two river systems have about the sanie potential. This is an extremely important problem. for the Canadian people and for their parliament. It involves not only the Arrow lakes in West Kootenay but also the Kootenay river in East Kootenay and the Mica creek dam. It involves the whole question of downstreami benefits and what is ta be paid by the United States interests for storage of water on the system in Canada. It may also involve the Fraser river. The suggestion has been made by federal min- isters that they are going ta divert some of the Columbia river water inta the Fraser river. That may be a good idea but I point out thiat just six years ego we had terrible floods on the Fraser, and the people living in the delta of that river are very much con- cerned about what is going ta happen ta themn if a lot of Columbia river water is diverted into the Fraser. I suggest that the way for parliament ta handie the question is ta have it considered by the external affairs committee. In each of the last two sessions that committee has heard evidence on the Columbia river systemi from General McNaughton, and very inter- esting and useful evidence it was. If that committee is allowed ta deal with the question this year before the proposed legislation be- cames law, then General McNaughton can be cailed ta explain the whole story. We can have representatives from. the British Ca- lumbia government attend. We can cross- examine officials from the different federal government departments who have been studying the Columbia river system, and we might even have representatives from the Kaiser interests who could tell their side of the story. My point is that this is the kind of prob- lem that should be carefuily studied by the private members of the house. It should not be lef t ta one or two ministers ta, make a decision which will affect Canadians on the west coast for generations ta corne. If the government daes not wish ta refer the matter to the standing committee on external affairs, a special committee could be set up or a new committee could be set up ta deal wlth ahl questions of power. I was very much interested in an article in the Financial Post of October 23 last by Michael Barkway, another distlnguished member of the press gallery, in which. he The Address-Mr. Green advocated a national energy policy for Can- ada. He advocated that ail questions con- cerning power, whether it be power gener- ated from water, atomie energy or in any other way, be deait with together. I think his plan was excellent. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) promised that during this session there wou]d be a committee on atomic energy. It might be possible to have a committee of that kind also consider the Columbia river situation. My third subject has to do with the price of wheat in store at Vancouver. As the Min- ister of Trade and Commerce announced yesterday, the government adopted a new policy on February 16 of last year under which the Canadian wheat board varied the price of wheat as between Vancouver and Fort William-Port Arthur with the objective of making these centres competitive. That was a departure from the policy that had been followed from 1943, a policy under which prices were the same at the west coast and the lakehead. When changing the pol- icy the minister dropped the price of wheat at Fort William-Port Arthur by 7 cents. One resuit of this change in policy has been that shipments of wheat out of Vancouver drop- ped 40 per cent during the last four months of last year compared with the same four months in 1953. Vigorous protests have been made by a joint committee of the international long- shoremen's and warehousemen's union and the grain workers' union in Vancouver. Incidentally, they have given splendid leader- ship on this matter. They have been sup- ported by groups ail over the city, by the city council, by the provincial government and by ail of the papers. For example, I have here an editorial from the Vancouver Sun, which is a supporter of the government. The headîng is, "Facts for Mr. Howe, Ail Port Interests Suifer as Grain Trade Declines". The editorial, published on December 22 last, reads: There is a simple way for trade minister Hawe ta canvince himself that the wheat board grain price juggllng in favour of eastern ports is truly dam- aging Vancouver and citizens' wage packets. Tram Vancouver merchants exchange, national harbours board, shipping federatian, stevedoring firms and waterfront unions. and ship supply, chandlery and repair firms. he wll learni that fewer vessels are coming here ta take grain. When year end figures are officially prepared they wlill show a decrease between JuiY 31-end of the crap year--and Decem- ber, 1954. compared with the saine periad 1953. The Vancouver Province of January 7, five days ago, had an editorial headed "An Urgent Job for Vancouver M.P.'s" which reads in part as follows: Vancouver members of parlisment have a Job ta do at the session openlng this week. They should 116 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Green make it their business to speak and work to end If there were Canadian sbips, we would the federal discrimnation against wheat shipments have sore measure of control over the goods through this port. that were carried. It would be that much The Vancouver Herald of January 3 this easier to get our own products carried abroad. year had an editorial headed, "Let Mr. Howe It would be in the best interests Of the nation now heed his own advice 'to keep all ports as a whole. There may core a time, Mr. competitive' ". Speaker, when this government wili even The fact is that the wheat board in chang- have to subsidize foreign vessels to core to ing prices has always been one step behind. our ports to carry Canadian goods abroad. Ocean freight rates go up but the price does Tbe figures on the merchant navy bave not drop as fast as these rates go up. The made very sad reading for several years. They result has been that shipments of wheat are growing steadily worse. I have bere the through the port have fallen. Even with seventb report of the Canadian maritime the removal of this difference in price, Van- commission, dated June 24, 1954. We find couver would have great difficulty in meeting at page 15 that in the year 1952 Canadian the Atlantic price, I believe. For one reason, vessels carried only 6-4 per cent of Canada's it is a far longer voyage; it takes far longer trade; tbat was down from 202 per cent in for the wheat to get to the United Kingdom vessels were carrying for he hea to et o te UntedKindom 35 -4 per cent in 1952, whicb was down frorn from the west coast. Shipping is not as plentiful as it is on the east coast. We c n 2 per cent o our trade, were believe that this policy, which the minister in 1947 tbey2oney carried 346 per cent. For announced yesterday is to be permanent, Then we only a wrong policy. It sets off Vancouver against carried 43 per cent of our goods; the British the lakehead. Buyers take advantage of that carried 34 per cent and other vessels 617 fact. They wonder why there are two prices. per cent. I ar sure that tbe figures for 1954, When the price is dropped at Vancouver they wbicb bave not yet been released, will be wait to see if the price will not drop at Fort very mucl worse again. William. We are down to the position where Cana- This new control imposed by this free dian vessels are carrying practically none of enterprise Minister of Trade and Commerce Canada's products. The deep sea dry cargo is unwise. I even took from his statement fleet under the Canadian fiag is practically yesterday that he believes the west coast gone. As I said, tbere are none left on the should sell its wheat in Japan and South west coast. On January 1, 1948, tbere were America, around the Pacific, and not worry 145 dry cargo vessels under Canadian registry. about the United Kingdom market. We are On December 31 of last year, there were just as much concerned about the United only 15, two of tbem 10,000-tonners built Kingdom market as are the centres in other during the war. One of these is Italian owned parts of Canada. I believe that in the long and operates out of ports in Italy. I believe run the old policy would be far better, both it bas not been in Canada for many years. for Vancouver and for Fort William-Port Tbere were seven 4,700-tonners, of wbicb five Arthur. We on the west coast demand that belong to Canadian National Steamsbips and this discrimination be ended without further two are in the paper trade out of Newfound- delay. land. 0f tbe six otbers, tbree belong to the This question brings up my fourth point. Canadian National Steamsbips and three are The drop in shipping coming into Vancouver engaged in the coastal trade eut of Newfound- harbour for grain has meant fewer ships in land. Our gross tonnage bas dropped fror that port to carry other commodities. We 928,598 tons on January 1, 1948, to 68,936 tons are now in the position where it is a great on December 31, 1954, the lowest point in 35 problem to get ships to carry our pulp. Peo- years. Tbere are only about 500 Canadian ple who must ship these products abroad are merchant seamen. Almost every other nation finding it increasingly difficult to get bottoms. bas gone in tbe opposite direction. Canada bas no deep sea dry cargo fleet. On I know tbere are certain sbips under United the west coast there is not one ship left under Kingdor registry wbich are owned by Ca- Canadian registry. We are dependent on nadians but tbey are under United Kingdor foreign ships to carry our goods. Here we direction and manned by United Kingdor are, the nation which per capita bas to ship sailors. Tbey mean little to Canada and they more of its goods than any other nation, left are ail old. Government policy is sucb that in a position where, on the west coast-it is it prevents tbem from being modernized. We almost as bad on the east coast-all these are told tbat Canada sbould rely on the goods have to be carried in foreign vessels. North Atlantic Treaty Organization sbipping [Mr. Green.] JANUARY 12. 1955 pool for its shipping; that if there is a war we will be served by that pool. There is no such pool in operation, and I understand that the United States is holding back; she has not agreed to come into the pool. If war were to corne, Canada would have to start build- ing ail over again. There would be a great delay. There would be time required to train seamen, and a tremendous expenditure. It wouid probably be too late. The government has had recommendation after recommendation from. its own maritime commission and other officiais that there should be a nucleus of approximately 50 modern fast vesseis maintained for a Cana- dian merchant navy. But the policy adopted or the refusal to adopt any poiicy has resulted in this being one of the most dismal failures of the present government. I believe that even yet a bold poiicy could save the situa- tion. 1 regret there is nothing about it in the speech from the throne. My next subi ect concerns the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters), who is a very good friend of mine and a minister for whom I have great admiration. Last session we asked if the government wouid help in the construction of the Marpole bridge over the north arm of the Fraser. I have not time to quote the Hansards; they are ail here. I will not embarrass the minister by reading them. First he said no. Of course, the plea for help is based on the fact that this bridge is the only means of access to the Vancouver ail ort-, wmnîcn is-the -airport doing the most business in Canada. We pointed out that the Minister of -Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) had said yes a few years ago. Eventu- ally the Minister of Public Works, somewhat reluctantiy, agreed that the government wouid pay $400,000. That figure was reached on the basis of an estimate made some years ago that the way to repaîr this bridge was to put in a new span. The 6,000-odd vessels which. go through every year wouid stili be going through, and the span wouid stili have to be opened for them. This government favoured improving the span, so he took the estimate of $1,200,000 for that job and said the government would pay one-third because it had been admitted that the dominion should pay one-third. We pointed out that was useless because there had to be a high level bridge. However, the minister would not raise the offer. Finaiiy on June 25 his parliamentary as- sistant had this to say in response to a ques- tion by myseif, as reported on page 6774 of Hansard for that date: Mr. Bourget: I think the amount of $400.000 bas been offered to the province to build the Marpole bridge, but I arn informed that they want to build the br'dge at Oak street. The Address-Mr. Green Mr. Green- That is right. Mr. Bourget: So far. I do flot thlnk- Mr. Green: Does that mean then that unless the provincial government agrees to this ridiculous scheme of simpiy putting a lift on the old Marpole bridge, the dominion government wlU not make any contribution at ail? Mr. Bourget: I arn told that they wifl probably make the same offer for the Oak street bridge. Mr. Green: The dominion government wlll pay $400,000 on a new bridge on Oak street? Mr. Bourget: That Is right, Mr. Chairman. Subsequently we had the provincial govern- ment taking steps to build this high level bridge, and saying quite frankly months ago that if the dominion did not; contribute its share tolls would be placed on the traffic over the bridge until its cost had been met. And now the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters) takes this position-and the date is December 11, 1954-as set out in a press dispatch bearing the heading "With- draw $400,000 Offer": Ottawa won't pay a cent on new Marpole bridge plan. Then follows the dispatch by Mr. Warren Baldwin, stating: The federal governmnent considers itseIf out of the picture as far as the Marpole bridge is concerned. .Under some circumstances," said Mr. Winters, ".we might stili have been ready to contribute the $400,000 to the larger project planned by the prov- ince but we obviously can't contribute to a revenue producing project." Mr. Rowe: Was that before the election? Mr. Green: No, that is after the election. Now, the bridge is flot a revenue producing project; it wiii have to, be a toîl bridge, simpiy to pay the cost. I believe this is a case in \Vhieh. there stili is an obligation on the dominion. The airport business is growing ail the time; more money is to he spent on it by the dominion ail the time. And the decision announced the other day -by the minîster shouid be changed. Finaily I had meant to, say a word in sup- port of the establishment of the Canada council, but I do not have time to do so. In ciosing may I give a friendiy warning to the government. The Liberal party has been in office nearly twenty years, in five succeeding parliaments. In four of those parliaments that party has had an over- whelming mai ority. I arn sure everyone here today who served in those five parliaments wiil agree that the one in which the sides were more evenly baianced was a far stronger parliament than any of the other four. Watching those five governments, one can clearly see the government steadily growing more arrogant, with iess and less reason. Today we have sign after sign that this govern- ment places very little importance on parlia- ment, and more and more importance on the HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Regier government itself. I suggest that we have, right here in this Liberal government-and not only among the cabinet ministers but also the private members-the greatest self- admiration society in the whole country. Mr. Rowe: In the whole world. Mr. Green: The manner in which the government has dealt with the questions to which I have referred this afternoon-unern- ployment, the Columbia river development, the price of wheat at Vancouver, the mer- chant navy and the Marpole bridge-and the reaction of the ministers when anyone dares to raise these questions, indicates clearly that their attitude is now becoming one of con- tempt for all contrary opinions. Mind you, it is only human nature that when one has been in power, has been in command for such a long time, he thinks he is very good indeed. That is a natural human reaction. I can understand why members of the cabinet have that reaction-although I have noticed that while the older ones, who had some justification for it, go to jobs in different parts of the country, or retire, or go to the Senate, the younger ones who have just come up have the same sense of self-satisfaction that was held by men who really had some ground for it. That is one of the unfortunate features of the situation. In any event, this government has been in power for a very long time. It would be a good thing for the country if there were a change. I merely point out to the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) that if there is a continuation of the attitude to which I have referred, then in the long run it will defeat the government. And, worse than that, it will result, as I believe it has already resulted, in the people of this country being given leadership which is far less efficient and far less democratic than they deserve. Mr. Erharl Regier (Burnaby-Coquiilam): Mr. Speaker, from the observations we have heard in the debate it would seem to be cus- tomary to hand out a lot of bouquets and congratulations when one rises to speak. How- ever, I must say that I do not consider that in any way as part of my responsibility. I do not go even as far as the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) when, in his closing remarks, he said that he wanted to offer some friendly advice to the govern- ment. My advice is designed deliberately to help the people of Canada get rid of what I consider has been the most reactionary gov- ernment Canada has had since 1935. There- fore I have very few, if any, congratulations to offer. [Mr. Green.] The only congratulation I would extend would be to ask Mr. Deputy Speaker to trans- mit to Mr. Speaker our appreciation of the manner in which he has fulfilled his heavy responsibilities. Unlike the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch), I can say honestly that in the province of British Columbia the man of French-Canadian des- cent from east of the Ottawa river who is considered most famous is the Speaker of the House of Commons, and not the gentleman who was referred to as "Uncle Louie". I might add that the prestige of the so-called "Uncle Louie" in British Columbia is very low, indeed. It is often said in the house that this or that is the privilege of the opposition. That is a wrong process of thinking-very wrong. The opposition in the House of Commons has a responsibility, not a privilege. Whether we sit on the government or on the opposition side, we have the same privilege. Govern- ment members have one responsibility, that of governing the country according to their lights; and we definitely have the responsibili- ty of seeing to it that, in face of the govern- ment majority, the people of Canada get the best possible government. I am very pleased to speak in support of the amendment to the amendment of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. I cannot see at all how the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Philpott) draws the conclusion that the leader of the C.C.F. was caught without his swimming trunks when the Progressive Conservative amendment was offered. That amendment follows the pattern of which we, in past years, may have been guilty-that of picking little individual items and castigating the government for not implementing them. Next year we have found they would implement them, and we would have to think of something new. The time has arrived in the Canadian economic scene when little bits here and little remedies there are no longer sufficient. I agree wholeheartedly with my leader when he maintains that there is plenty of evidence to show that, by deliberate design, this gov- ernment is turning itself from a genuinely Liberal government into a genuinely Conser- vative government. I noticed that also in the address by the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe). In years gone by it was the C.C.F. who told the government, "You are doing this and this. These are the things we have been asking for." This winter the C.C.F. are not going to be telling the government that they are doing the things we have been asking for. This winter, as we have already JANUARY 12, 1955 heard in this house, the Acting Leader of the Opposition is going to be telling the govern- ment, "You are now intending to do the things the Conservative party of Canada has been advocating." If you will look over the legislation that is proposed you will see that the Acting Leader of the Opposition has grounds for making that statement, and for claiming for the Tory party some of the credit. The time has arrived when a challenge is arising to the reactionary Liberal government headed by the present Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent). The times are not too different from the years preceding the hungry 1930's. At that time the Canadian public was well aware that a complete switch in government policy was necessary. The only thing that was open to the Canadian public was to turn to the only alternative, the Conserva- tive party. Now they have, under the guise of the Liberal party, a Conservative govern- ment, and this time there is an alternative available. From one end of Canada to the other, from Newfoundland to British Colum- bia, there is a genuine farmer-labour people's party that will be ready to take on the govern- ment of the country when an election again rolls around. This government, in my opinion-and I think the speech from the throne shows plenty of evidence of that-is concerned only with the welfare of the Liberal party, and it is not doing very well at that. I notice that fewer than 14 per cent of the Canadian people have a Liberal party in office on the provincial level. Only the relatively smaller provinces of Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia and Manitoba have Liberal regimes. Their fortunes are at a low ebb indeed. When I was elected to this parliament one of the first things I made up my mind about was that I was going to get to know more about the country in which I live. I regret very much that the tour of the members of parliament to the province of British Columbia planned for last fall had to be postponed. I hope it has not been postponed for long, because I feel it is a great thing to be able to see how other people in Canada, thousands of miles away from us, live. I therefore spent a good deal of my summer and fall visiting other parts of Canada. I should say the oftener I travel in Canada, the prouder I am of Canada. We have a wonderful nation, the most marvellous of all the nations of the world, and we have the most aggressive and progressive popula- tion. However, another impression I gathered that you cannot fail to notice is the vast The Address-Mr. Regier potential, the vast possibilities that are open to the people of Canada. When one contem- plates that one gets a certain feeling of humbleness and at times even of shame, when one sees all those natural resources and realizes how aggressive and sturdy the people are who are living here. That is par- ticularly true when you realize we have such things as housing shortages, unemployment, lack of educational facilities, and so forth. The lack of aggressive action on the part of the Liberal government since 1935 in that respect has had a good deal to do with it. I was in the maritimes, and I should like to congratulate the people there on having finally decided that their hope for help from a federal government that might be inter- ested in the welfare of the whole nation was groundless. To look for help from such a federal government under this Liberal cabinet that we now have is to look in vain indeed; therefore these people have decided that they are going to see what they can do to help themselves. I welcome most heartily their formation of an interprovincial de- velopment council. I have not the exact name of it at my fingertips; however, I wish them well, and I hope this federal government may yet -see fit to lend a hand, first of all in a reassessment, followed by a rehabilitation of the economic life of the whole of the maritimes. The need to help themselves has of course long been evident in the province of Nova Scotia, where the people long ago realized that to look to the two old political parties for help in their difficulties was useless. They have led the whole of the maritime region in the formation of co-operatives and credit unions. However, in other parts of the mari- times I find that the people do not even realize what they have missed. They do not even seem to grasp the fact that the people of Canada are no longer living in the hungry thirties. When you see a new house in cer- tain parts of New Brunswick you really lift up your head to look because it is some- thing new, whereas in other parts of Canada new houses are a thing of almost everyday occurrence. If we could only take the people of New Brunswick on a tour from one end of Canada to the other; if they could see what is going on and how the people in Ontario, in Saskatchewan, in Alberta and in British Columbia are living, their high stand- ard of living, I am sure they would decide that they had had enough of both Liberals and Conservatives. Mr. Gregg: May I ask my hon. friend when he last visited New Brunswick? HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Regier Mr. Regier: I visited New Brunswick in the summer of 1954. Mr. Gregg: Personally? Mr. Regier: I also spent a fair amount of time in the province of Quebec. This prov- ince seems to be the sore spot in the matter of Canadian unity. I was raised in the west. For years the late Mackenzie King told us how he was building national unity, and for years most of us believed him. "Yes, that is the man to build national unity." How is it, Mr. Speaker, if the late Mackenzie King was really and truly building national unity that, after such a long premiership, almost the moment he disappears from the scene we have less national unity than we have had in Canada for ages and ages? One plea that I should like to make to the Prime Minister of Canada is this. I hope this house and the other house also will no longer be plagued with the necessity of sit- ting in a judicial capacity. We are here to legislate. I feel that a great opportunity may be missed if the present Prime Minister should want to resign, or because of circum- stances of age or health have to resign, before this matter is settled. We do not want to handle divorce cases in the parliament of Canada. At none of my meetings from one end of Canada to the other did I mention the sub- ject of divorce; yet invariably, as soon as I sat down, the first thing I was asked was, "What about this question of divorce?" The people of Canada are getting sick and tired of it. There is one man who can help us out of this situation and that is the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent). I feel that if he does not do so he will have failed in one of his greater responsibilities. It may interest my good Liberal friends who are hon. members of this house and who represent ridings in the province of Quebec to learn that when I came quite unannounced into the city of Montreal one day two clergy- men of the Catholic faith, who somehow or other or by some unknown route had found out I was in Montroal, phoned me to ask for appointments. That was amazing to me. What did they want appointments for? They wanted to know the story from other than Liberal sources for a change. They wanted t get at the root of the difficulty and the dissatisfaction. Not only that; one of them referred a number of cases to me and pleaded with me to take up the fight on behalf of people whom he felt might be injured. I assured him that I hoped not to have to do that and that a solution would be found to remove this business from parliament. I have received numerous letters from outside Quebec. I have received letters from [Mr. Gregg.] the Riviera and the Scandinavian countries, from former Canadians whose lives had been so messed up by their cases having been handled in the houses of parliament of Can- ada that they felt obligated to remove them- selves from Canada and spend the rest of their lives elsewhere. I think it is a shiame that we are not able to end this matter once and for all. At this time I make this plea to the Prime Minister, that he do what he can. If he cannot do anything I doubt whether there is any future Liberal prime minister who will be able to do anything. He would have to be a resident of Ontario, because such a man could not possibly come from western Canada. Another matter that worries the people of Canada a great deal, and that excites a lot of interest, is this knight in shining armour who was once and for all going to rid the political scene of Canada of a certain man. He was to rid us of him politically speaking; we wish him well personally. I am referring to the premier of Quebec. I am told that assurance was given last winter to the Liberal members of parliament from Quebec somewhat along these lines: "Now, boys, you stay with me in this fight. When it is over and we have won our fight in the house I will put on this armour and go out and do personal battle, and we will end up on top." The guns were fired, but what happened? I wonder how those Liberal members of parliament who put their faith in the Prime Minister feel about it now. They must be most humiliated indeed, because from all ap- pearances the premier of Quebec seems to have won a complete victory. All he did was this. When he got a slap on one cheek he turned the other cheek, and the Prime Minister of Canada had to humiliate the whole nation by boarding a train to go to meet the master of that other nation in a hotel room in Montreal. Mr. Martin:. Does the hon. member know of any declaration made by the head of any government in this country which was more widely approved or more universally com- mended throughout Canada than the speech made by the Prime Minister of Canada at the Reform club in Quebec? Mr. Regier: That is exactly what I am say- ing. All Canada looked forward with great anticipation, the progressive people in the province of Quebec looked forward with great anticipation to the political battle which was shaping up on the Canadian scene. Then there was the utter humiliation and shame that all of us felt when it ended up in a complete turnabout in this hotel room in Montreal. The people of Quebec are going to wake up. There are enough of them to turn the JANUARY 12, 1955 tide. My forecast is that when tha-t tide turns in the province o! Quebec it is going to turn mighty fast. My grea.test conceri is that it may turn to the communîst party. I contend that there is no part of Canada that is as ripe for advances by the communist party as the province o! Quebec. In the city of Montreal the commiunist party polled about as many votes as the C.C.F. Mr. Boisvert: How many days did the hon. member spend in the province of Quebec? Mr. Regier: I think I am safe in saying that I have spent more days in the province o! Quebec than any six members of parlia- ment fromn Quebec taken together have spent in British Columbia. Mr., Eoisvert: I shouid like the hon. mem- ber to answer that question. How many days dcl he spend in the province of Quebec when hie went there last summer? Mr. Regier: I have not; added them. up; I do not know the number o! days I was there hast summer. The people of Quebec are suffering. They are subi ected ta double taxa- tion and they are not; enjoying the facilities in the field of education which they would hike to have, which they ought ta have and which they deserve as Canadian citizens. They are not; receiving adequate health services to which they are entitled. I was amazed to learn that it was many years after the rest of Canada was enjoying old age pensions before Quebec was granted this privilege. One reason for this was that when the late Mr. Mackenzie King, while leader o! the Liberal party, was preaching national unity, on the other side o! the Ottawa river he was telling the people of Quebec, "You are some- thing apart; you are something different; you must have special consideration." I regret ta admit that ahi the political parties of Canada represented in the prov- ince of Quebec are o! one* accord. They are ahi supporters, consciously or otherwise, o! the basic philosophy of the premier o! Quebec. An hion. Member: Wish!ul thinking. Mr. Regier: It is not wish!ul thinking. I have seen resolutions passed by the Quebec branches o! various pohiticai parties. I have said ta the people of Montreal, and they appiauded me when I said it, that unity in Canada cannot be based on anything except the needs o! the people. Human beings in Montreal are the same as human beings in Winnipeg or ini any other Canadian city. The people o! Canada want decent housing and decent food. They want employment. They want heahth services. We ahi want these things whether we hive in one part of Canada Dr another. There is your basis of unity for The Address-Mr. Regier the Canadian people. The C.C.F. is the oniy party which has arisen out of the needs of the people of Canada and is therefore abie to tell the samne story in ail parts of Canada. If hon. members do flot like what I have been saying about the province of Quebec we wiii go to the next province, the province of Ontario. In the province of Ontario I found widespread complaints about the ad- ministration of the Department of National Revenue. I was toid by civil servants that it is the worst administered department of the government of Canada. The customs of- ficers along the line do not seem. to know where they are at. One makes one rullng one day and another one cornes in the next day and overrules that, making a different regula- tion. I think it is time for a complete over- haul, and I say this in aul kindness to the minister for I believe he should do this before he leaves that department, possîbiy to take on another. He should order a coin- piete reassessment such as we had with the Criminai Code iast year. I believe it is time the regulations of the Departrnent of National Revenue were consolidated and the difficulties ironed out. However, we will have more o! that later in the session. There is a great housîng shortage, and in this regard I was interested to hear the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croil) state that N.H.A. houses are being built for $1,000. The hon. member mentioned a clown paymnent of $1.,500, and I earnestiy hope homes are availabie at that figure. However, I would like to be reassured on that point and know for certain that the people of Toronto who are eligible for N.H.A. homes can buy a $1,000 home for a down payment of $1,500. The people of Ontario are worried about the question of immigration, especiaiiy as it relates to unemployment. We fail to under- stand how so many individual applicants for immigration into Canada can be turned clown, yet wherever we go in the major centres of Canada there seemi to be hundreds of single immigrants who have corne into this country and are now without employment. It has long been suspected that the depart- ment of immigration, either deliberately or through lack of planning and direction, is allowing thousands of single workers into Canada, people with no contacts in Canada and possibly only the promise o! short-time employment, while keeping out others whom we ought to welcome into aur country. I shall not go into detail on that because o! lack of time. In the province of Manitoba the record speaks for itself. I was amazed at the efforts the Liberal party madle ta win the Selkirk 122 HOUSE OF COMMONS Tfhe Address-Mr. Regier by-election. I understand one cabinet minis- bas gone into the provincial coffers. In the ter was sent in for a repeat performance. If light of these facts the people cannot under- he had been sent in once more the Liberal stand wby their taxes continue to increase. candidate might actually have lost his deposit. We have not a Liberal organization in I also understand that 48 hours before the Alberta worthy of the name. We have mme voters went to the polls they were told that Liberal members in the legisiature, but they the so-called payment on wheat would be have no organization behind tbem. I would 10 cents a bushel, and it would be paid out point out, tbough, that the C.C.F. in Aiberta shortly after the by-election. bas a vital, wide-awake, active organization, I would like to congratulate whoever is in and the leader of the Social Credit party charge of the Liberal party organization in migbt get the sbock of bis hfe before six Canada, for under his guidance the party more montbs have passed. In fact, we migbt made a tremendous effort to bolster their have to rearrange the seating in this bouse rapidly sinking prestige in the province of before very long. Manitoba. However, Manitoba is a little Coming now to the province of British more progressive than a great many other Columbia, which migbt be described as the parts of Canada. To the Liberal party I garden of Eden-I bad "paradise" in my would say, "Your cause in Manitoba is com- notes but I bad to change that because of our pletely hopeless. In addition, it will require present government there and because I another five to ten years before you begin remembered, Mr. Speaker, that the garden of to grow again in British Columbia, while in Eden was not a perfect place; tbere was an Alberta there is no hope for you at all, and influence tbere. However, coming back to even less in Saskatchewan. Your efforts to British Columbia I behieve that politically hold Manitoba will be completely fruitless." it bas made greater advances than any other I spent a good deal of time in Saskatche- province in Canada in tbat we bave flnally wan, and I found the people there taking this consolidated a two-party system. Hon. mem- terrible trimming over the crop failure in their bers migbt take a look at today's Hansard usual manner. However, they are bitterly and read how the bon. member for Van- disappointed over the failure of the Minister couver-Quadra (Mr. Green) made a powerful of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) to come through plea on hehaîf of the rigbts of the provincial with the dam. The yarn going around Sas- government in British Columbia. His was katchewan is that the Minister of Agriculture notbing more than an attempt to get that has made up his mind that before he leaves government off the hook in its figbt over the political scene he is going to do every- power witb the federal government, wbicb it thing he can to obtain the dam, and thus is rapidîy losing. not go down in history as a political failure. Tbey were elected as tbe free enterprise In fact, we are told in Saskatchewan that at party. Tbey told tbe farmers there that the every cabinet meeting all the Minister of Agriculture speaks about is the dam, and reso the ere t genme for ter the other cabinet ministers are getting to the milk bcst gemnt was ter- point where they say, "Damn the Minister of Agriculture, damn the dam, and damn people in the urban areas, "You are paying all Saskatchewan anyhow". too mucb for your muR. Take the govern- ment out off the milk business. Government Then we come to the province of Alberta, in business is a bad tbing. It is Marxian and there we find a rather fluid situation in and basically bad." The farmers and the regard to political life. The people there are urban dwehhers fell for it, but I am stihi pay- rapidly becoming disillusioned with their ing 22 cents per quart for my milk. Farmers present government, particularly when they in the Fraser valley of British Cohumbia bave see a clergyman, a humble servant of the lost untold hundreds of thousands of dollars people, placed in charge of one of the most as a result of tbis policy, and now they are important government departments and end beginning to worry about it. Tbey have up, after leaving the political scene, as the managed to get a commission appointed and head of a company which threatens to become the "Socreds" are worrying about how tbey one of the biggest private utility companies can save face and again sneak back into the in Canada. When they see that they begin mihk business. to wonder. I was pleased to note that apparenthy the leader off the Social Credit party pheaded yes- The government there promised to do away terday for orderly marketing for farm prod- with all tax on land, but taxes on land have uce. Last year I vas ahso pleased to hear been gradually rising despite the fact that hlm speak in favuur of abohisbing tohîs on undreds of millions off dollars off ot revenue bridges. I hope that le can somehow [Mr. Regier.] JANUARY 12, 1955 exercise some restraint and stop the wild antics of those who are nothing but smart- aleck politicians, who lead a rather reluctant Social Credit group in the house in Victoria. Then we have the new Conservative party there, and it has a most useful role to play. I have no objection to the Conservative party. I have every admiration for it. It has a neces- sary part to play in a democracy. It is the party of consolidation, while the C.C.F. party is the party of progress. Let the Conservative party now call itself "Socred" or even "Union Nationale". It is immaterial, and it is all right with me. It has a political function to perform. However, what I do object to is this Liberal party that is neither here nor there, that is not a free enterprise party and is not socialistically inclined. It is based on nothing, I repeat, except the welfare of the Liberal party. That will come to an end when economic circumstances change and the people demand a government that believes in action. They will either elect the right wing or the left wing, and I can forecast a split right down the middle in the membership across the way. Who the new leader of the right wing will be I do not know. I hear that sparring for the position is going on, and that a number of very aggressive and fairly young individuals are concerned. It is my firm conviction that the Liberal party in British Columbia has disappeared as a political force. The main reason, I am verily beginning to believe, is that the bottom of the Fraser river is paved with the gold and studded with the diamonds of Liberal political patronage. We had a Fraser river gold rush many years ago, and it is said that history has a way of repeating itself. This patronage and pork barrel politics were the main reason for the wiping out of the Liberal government in Saskatchewan, and this also holds true for the province of British Columbia. There is an answer to the situation. The people do not know what is going on and the opposition, apparently, bas no place in government. I sometimes wonder if we have any place. I sometimes even won- der why the private Liberal members of par- liament sitting around and behind the cabinet ministers are here at all. They have no in- fluence on the government, and I do not know why they are here. This Canada of ours is definitely ruled by a cabinet that has all the facilities at its com- mand to defend its position, right or wrong. I fully endorse the plea made by the Con- servatives some time ago, about which I read in the newspapers, that greater facilities be made available to the opposition members so The Address-Mr. Regier they can do their work properly. When I re- ferred to the Fraser river you might think that I exaggerated. Maybe I did, but how am I to know? What means are available to me to find out whether or not the half a million dollars for this project and the $2 million for that project are a waste of money? When the cabinet wants to defend its posi- tion with regard to expenditures on certain public works it has all research facilities available. The matter has become so serious that after the last election there were articles in certain newspapers pointing out that Canada was beginning to have a one-party government. To anyone who has sat in the galleries of the house over a period of years I think it must be very obvious that we are rapidly approaching the day, if this situation carries on much longer and opposition mem- bers are unable to do too much about it, when not only will we have a bipartisan foreign policy, as ýwe sometimes do, but all our policies will be bipartisan, and that would be a sad day for the cause of democracy. I should like to endorse what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Winch) with regard to the trans-Canada high- way and the assumption of responsibility by the federal government for all major high- ways in Canada. I think the time is long overdue when municipal and provincial tax- payers should be afforded some measure of relief from the burden of taxation brought about by road construction and maintenance. Money is so urgently needed for municipal development that we cannot longer afford to see so much of the income of the lower levels of government being used for road building. I should like also to advocate that a committee of the house be established, or even a royal commission, to investigate al expenditures of the Department of National Defence and the Department of Defence Pro- duction since the end of the war. I think the most amazing information would be revealed. That is another place where the opposition is handicapped. I would say that even the Liberal members who are not in the cabinet are severely handicapped in fulfilling their function in the house. I know that the Department of National Defence has wasted $300,000 in my riding in the purchase of a swamp, land that is absolutely useless for the purpose for which it was bought. Somebody made a mistake. I am not saying that the government must necessarily be condemned for a mistake, but they spent $300,000 for land on which to build an army supply depot, and the land turned out to have no bottom to it. At least, no bottom has been found so far, and the land is most unsuited for that purpose. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Leboe Mr. Argue: No horses on the payroll. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I am obliged to advise him that his time has expired. Mr. Regier: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Casileden: They sank the horses in the middle of the swamp. Mr. Argue: What's a million dollars? Mr. B. R. Leboe (Cariboo): Mr. Speaker, in rising on this occasion to speak on behalf of my constituents I am sure they would want me to convey to you and to the members of the house their best wishes for the coming year. I should also like to congratulate the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. I also congratulate the new members of parliament for giving up all those things with which they were occupied previous to coming here and giving of them- selves to the nation's business. Naturally there were some disappointments last year, but as we look back we have reason to believe that there was much for which to be thankful. Many of our disappointments were brought about by things beyond our control. Weather conditions in the part of my riding where I live were very bad so far as the production of logs and lumber is con- cerned. Across Canada we find that condi- tions for agriculture were anything but good. Dealing with British Columbia, and more particularly with the riding of Cariboo in which I am most interested, we find it is expected that tenders will be called for the Dawson Creek federal building early this year. For a good many years we have been looking forward to the construction of this building, and I am certain that the people of that area appreciate a great deal the action that is being taken this year. Whilst speaking in connection with the Dawson Creek area, I should like to mention that we are pleased to hear that the telephone situation will be cleared up within the next 18 months, and that a dial system will be introduced in Dawson Creek. I should like to recommend at this time, in connection with improvements in the Dawson Creek area, that an unattended automatic set-up for Pouce Coupe be considered, which would give a 24-hour service from that town into the central point of Dawson Creek. I should like to congratulate the govern- ment on the appointment of the new Minister of Transport (Mr. Marler) because I believe that, as well as having great ability, he has many other admirable qualities. We are looking forward to seeing some good results from his department. [Mr. Regier.] The provincial government of British Columbia has contributed a great deal to the welfare of our people. Among the things that interest me most is the extension of the Pacific Great Eastern from Squamish to Van- couver. This extension, as you perhaps know, is well under way. It is expected that the extension from Prince George to Fort St. John will be under way next year. I under- stand that tenders for the construction of the first 65 miles will be called some time early in February. As a result of the confidence in the British Columbia government there has been a great deal of private investment throughout the whole province. This sometimes brings with it circumstances which cause the government a bit of concern. Because of the rapid expan- sion, the educational facilities in the province, as elsewhere in Canada, can hardly keep pace with the growth in population. In the northern part of my constituency there is an increased interest in gas and oil exploration. The proposed gas line from Fort St. John to Vancouver and to the inland empire of the Pacific northwest in the United States brings a great deal of hope for our people throughout the length and breadth of the Cariboo riding because we expect many new secondary industries will be brought into being. I noticed that in the Vancouver Sun of January 3, in speaking about this develop- ment, Frank Walden, who is a staff writer for the Vancouver Sun had this to say: The year 1954 was as action-packed from a Social Credit government's point of view, as the violent election years of 1952 and 1953. The shouting was not perhaps as loud, but more, in fact a good deal, was accomplished. Again on the economic side, I may say that British Columbia bonds sold for the highest price ever in the eastern money markets. Frobisher posted with the government a colossal $2,500,000 bond and prepared to build an immense hydrochemical empire in the northern section of British Columbia. Alcan announced another $45 million expansion program ahead of schedule. There is every reason for the people of British Columbia to be optimistic, and we expect that as time goes on a much greater development will take place within the province. The point I should like to make at this time is that all these developments are going to add substantially to the federal govern- ment's revenues. Under the tax agreements we find that the greater the development, naturally the more money the federal govern- ment is going to collect. We feel, therefore, that there are certain responsibilities the federal government must meet in connection JANUARY 12, 1955 with collecting that additional revenue from British Columbia. We would expect the federal governrnent to take steps to assist the province to continue this rapid developrnent in order that the people of Canada including those of British Columbia may enjoy a higher standard of living and a greater Canada. The people of British Columbia are active and enterprising, and are much encouraged by the sound policy of the British Columbia governrnent, which is noted for being a gov- ernrnent that talks less and does more. That this feeling of optimism is growing there is no doubt. We do feel that there should be no encroachment upon provincial rights by the federal government in anythjng that is dore. Speaking last session regarding transporta- tion facilities I rnentioned the highway prob- lemn, as recorded at page 180 of Hansard for November 19, 1953. But before dealing with the problem of highways, I should like to mention one rnatter of înterest not only to the people in that part of British Columbia from which I corne but also to all the people of Canada. We find we have a situation in which there are two large Canadian railroads being subsidized by the taxpayers of Canada. These subsidies put the railways in a position where they can set rates without regard to whether or not they lose money. As long as the railways are being subsidized, there is no reason why the railway company could not carry freight for nothing in order to meet competition. The trucking problem. has been brought to my attention, and the position o! the trucking cornpany is becorning hopeless. It might be said by some that the trucking business is being subsidized, but I think that is a long way from the truth. The trucking industry pays a tax of 10 cents per gallon on gasoline and licence fees for the use o! the highways. These highways are needed for the lighter trafflc as well as for heavy loads on the short hauls on which the railways are not able to give service. I should like to quote some figures which are very revealing in connection wlth freight rates and agreed charges. I find that accord- ing to the Canadian freight classification there is a f ourth class rate of $2.98 against an agreed charge of $2.09, which is being charged for first class freight. I see that the first class freight rate is $5.04, according to the Canadian freight classification. These figures speak for themselves. Again referring to the figures we see that from Edmonton to McBride, a distance o! 350 miles, the second class freight rate is ý$2.26. From Vancouver to Dawson Creek, a distance of 1,400 miles,' the first class freight rate under agreed charges The Address-Mr. Leboe is $2.09, or 17 cents less to bring freight 1,400 miles than to take the saine freight 350 miles, where there is no trucking competition. I think this situation is grossly unfair and demands the immediate attention of the government. The whole rate problem must be brought under review. There is no doubt in the world that in a pîoneering country especiafly-and perhaps I need flot say "especially"-this is necessary. I arn familiar particularly with that part of the trucking industry which serves the constituency of Cariboo. I know that many hundreds of miles of that con- stituency are served only by trucking. If we have a situation where subsidized railways can cut the rates and take the long hauls away from that trucking industry, it will throw it into a position where it cannot take care of local freight, either. We need the trucking industry, and we must do something to protect it fromn the ravages of subsidized railways that can cut rates down to nothing, if necessary-because it makes no difference to them, so long as the taxpayer is going to meet the difference, in the final analysis. 1 corne now to a matter which has been discussed by at least four members so far at this session, and that is the question of f ederal participation in the construction of arterial highways. I believe that so long as the federal governrnent is collecting the bulk of the taxes from the people in the provinces of Canada, more should be done in connection with the highways. As I said before, this could be linked with the defence program. I believe the time has corne when the gov- ernment should take a close look at the highway situation in Canada, particularly in the light of what is going on in our neigh- bouring country to the south. We find that United States expenditures planned for the next number of years arnount to more than $100 billion. In addition they have planned for $8 billion to be spent on toîl roads for the northern and central parts of that country. In view of the great extension o! the roads they already have in that country-and the roads now going to be built are termed as necessary, I understand, under the de! ence prograxn-we in Canada must surely realize that we are falling far behind in our program of road building. I noticed in an editorial in the Edmonton Journal of November 3, 1954, a heading "Military Loads and Roads." One paragraph in the editorial states: Last year, provincial hlghwaya minister Gordon Taylor requested federal aid i the construction of what would be rniitary trafMe arteries in this prov- Ince. He said that the provinces should not b. expected to buld hlghways which would carry heavy mnflitary traffic in the event of an attack on HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Leboe this country. Such traffic would require roads of a very high standard of construction to ensure mobility. The federal government rejected this request when it was made in concert by the west- ern provinces. Nevertheless, it has been apprised of the situation in warnings by Colonel J. R. B. Jones, chief engineer of the Canadian army, of the general inadequacy of Canadian highways for mili- tary requirements. Hon. George Prudham is opposed to construction of military highways outward from Edmonton as he does not think they will ever be needed for such use. It would be well for him to seek instruction from experts of the defence department on this vital subject. I would not feel justified in stressing the need for highways so much were it not for the fact that we realize the development of any country depends upon its highway and transportation facilities. I would urge this government to take another look at the whole highways situation with a view to providing more aid to the provinces in that regard. In this connection we do not advocate an increase in the national debt to do the job. I believe the Bank of Canada could be made a bank of issue; and the Bank of Canada as a bank of issue could monetize our national liquid assets, part of the difference between national income and national production. By so doing, without increasing the national debt and without necessarily paying any interest on the money issued, it could bring about a situation where surplus consumer goods not being bought today could be put into the hands of the unemployed. Those people could be set to work to build these badly needed highways. In this way there would be no increase in the national debt. We would only be using liquid assets we already have in the form of consumer goods. This could apply, of course, to many other phases of government. At the moment I think particularly of our senior citizens and all the other recipients of social assistance who are so badly in need of help, which situation we all recognize. We have heard a good deal about the unemployment situation, and I am not going to say much about it. However, I do go along with those who advocate bringing about a situation in Canada where we do not have to give out supplementary benefits, but who urge rather that we have a situation under which those who want to work would have the opportunity to do so. We know this is a young country and that there is much to do. We know we have the machines to do it; we have the manpower. Therefore there is no reason in the world why, with the manpower and the machines, the work could not be donc, since we have the liquid assets in the form of consumer goods that need to be consumed. [Mr. Leboe.] The government of British Columbia took action in connection with the unemployment situation in that province, taking the position that if the federal government was not going to give assistance, then the provincial govern- ment would not see the people left without the means of livelihood. One feature that affects my constituency particularly is that contracts for part of the construction on the Pacific Great Eastern Railway have been brought forward three or four months so that by the spring break- up in the lumbering industry in the Prince George area the work will be getting under way, so as to relieve the unemployment situation during the spring lay-off period. These are situations in which the govern- ment is active in looking after its people, and I feel very certain that they are going a long way in their policies to bring about better federal and provincial relations. We must give more autonomy to the provinces rather than putting the autonomy all in the federal government. We must get back to bringing the government closer to the people so the people of this land will have a closer contact with the government, and therefore be able to let their voices be heard much more often than in the past. We must get back to the position where people can get their needs before the gov- ernment. The further away we get from the municipal and provincial level the harder it is going to be for the people of Canada to get any action on problems that require government attention. I do not want to speak too long. In closing I wish to say that I was interested to note that the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquit- lam (Mr. Regier) was attempting to pick to pieces, as it were, the British Columbia government. I should like to remind him that for 17 years or so the C.C.F. were in opposition, but the people of British Columbia turned them down at the polls when the time came to elect a government other than the Liberal government that was in power at that time. Mr. Casileden: On the transferable vote. Mr. H. J. Murphy (Wes±morland): Mr. Speaker, I too want to congratulate the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) and to add my welcome to the new members who were elected at the by-elections last fall. I of course am a member from what the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Regier) described as a backward prov- ince, namely New Brunswick, in which he said a new house was a rarity. I am sure the places he visited would not be at all JANUARY 12, 1955 pieased to hear him say that today; and I can assure him, even without visiting bis riding, that we have more new houses in Westmorland county than he has in his riding, because last year he rose in 'his place in this house during a debate on housing and said that many people in his riding were living in tarpaper shacks, to which at the time the hon. member for Burnaby-Rich- mond (Mr. Goode) objected. I had in-tended to say something during my speech about the dredging of a ýharbour down in New Brunswick, Pointe du Chene harbour, which is part of my responsibility. However, the hon. member, who conducted one of the quickest national surveys I have ever heard of, took it upon himself to take an interest in that harbour in Westmorland county, New Brunswick. I shouid like to read an extract from the Moncton Transcript of June 23, 1954: Erhart Regier, C.C.F. member of parliament for Burnaby-Coquitlam, British Columbia, in a two-day speaking tour of westmorland county was critical of the Liberal governiment and what he cails "their do-nothing' attitude. Speaking Iast night at Sackville and the evening before at Petitcodiac Mr. Regier referred to the needed dredgbng of Point du Chene channel and charged that the governnient would do nothing until pressed by united action £rom several directions. I have pressed for the dredging of that channel from one direction. That is ahl I can do. I was looking forward at this session to the hon. member for Burnaby-coquitlam pressing for it from severai directions; but apparently since leaving Westmoriand hie ýhas lost interest in the dredging of this channel. The newspaper report of his speech goes on to say: He said that the people of British Columbia would be pleased to see federal funds spent on the rehabilitation of the maritime economic 11f e as they realize that the prosperity of Canada as a whole depended on the well-being of ail parts of the nation. In that regard he apparently is speaking for the government of British Columbia. To- day be was not a bit satisfied with the way the government of British Columbia was run- ning that province. I was startled to hear him pick apart the Social Credit government, particulariy after speaking for them. I can also tell him that in New Brunswick the people sometimes do change their minds politicaliy. They did that a year or two ago and elected a Progressive Conservative government. However, since the C.C.F. party was organized in New Brunswick their vote bas steadily declined. In Westmorland county the last candidate received about haîf as many votes as he did four years previously. Socialism in Westmorland county is definitely on its way out. The Address-Mr. H. J. Murphy An hon. Member: As it is everywhere else. Mr. Murphy .] JANUARY 12, 1955 not concerned so much with the route as with the acceptance of the principle of the construction of a canal to pierce the isthmus. The construction of this canal would pro- vide a short route in sheltered waters to the trading points in the bay of Fundy and in New England for the products of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland. It would increase coast- wise shipping between the gulf of St. Lawrence, the bay of Chaleur, Northumber- land strait and the bay of Fundy. It would increase regular steamship sailings between the Atlantic provinces and central Canada. A Chignecto canal would make it convenient for vessels plying between Montreal and points on the Atlantic seaboard to call at ports not only in the bay of Fundy but in northern Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and northern New Brunswick, and enable them to load or discharge cargoes and pas- sengers. It would revive native industries which flourished years ago, and it would create a new economy in the Atlantic provinces. It may surprise many residents of Canada to know that four years after confederation the percentage of population employed in industry in Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, was almost equal to the percentage of population similarly em- ployed in Quebec and Ontario. Seventy- five years later, however, a tremendous change took place. Ontario and Quebec had been steadily enriched and their industrial employment average rose. In the Atlantic provinces there had not been an increase but a devastating decline. Incidentally, in that period New Brunswick dropped from first place to fourth among the five provinces. Prior to confederation the maritime prov- inces were regarded as the most prosperous in British North America. New Brunswick, on a per capita basis, was the most indus- trialized of any of the provinces then com- prising Canada. The lack of a Chignecto canal is one of the reasons our prosperity and industrial development have lagged far be- hind Quebec and Ontario. In 1871, of every five Canadian industrial workers, one was employed in the maritimes. In 1946 the ratio had dropped to one out of every 17. Again, in 1871 the industrial wage paid to the worker in New Brunswick was the highest in Canada. In 1946 that province had almost the lowest wage rate in Canada. Besides the tremendous saving in shipping distances, the building of the canal would mean that many of the present small ports would be developed to carry on both a coastwise and an ocean-going business. The 50433-9 The Address-Mr. H. J. Murphy time then bas come, after many attempts over the past 300 years, for the government to fulfil its confederation promise and build the Chignecto canal. Before closing there is one other matter I would like to bring to the attention of the house, for it is a matter of serious concern to us in New Brunswick. That is the plight of our farmers. It is true that we have many successful farmers outside our larger towns and cities, most of them special- izing in daily farm products such as liquid milk for the supply of these centres. But if you drive through Westmorland county and some of the adjoining counties you will see many abandoned farms with win- dows in the houses boarded up and the place left to rot. That is a terrible situa- tion, and I would like to know of some way in which to remedy it. We have, of course, a Canadian farm loan board, but apparently that was designed more to assist the farmers of western and central Canada, and in my opinion it is not suited to the purpose of assisting the farmers in New Brunswick. To the best of my knowledge there was only one Canadian farm loan board application granted in Westmorland county last year. I may be wrong, but certainly there were not more than three or four. In this connection I would like to point out, and it should be recognized in the regu- lations, that there are other types of farming in addition to those known in central and western Canada. In New Brunswick a man could have a farm close to the sea and during a few weeks of the year he could go down to the shore line and fish. This would pro- vide him with a small cash income. In an- other district a farmer may have a wood lot at the back of his farm from which he cuts a certain amount of wood each year, in fact probably the sane amount as his father and grandfather cut in their day. Out of that small supply of wood he makes another small cash income. In addition, part of his farm may be composed of rocky land on which nothing grows very well except small spruce and fir trees. Each year in the fall he thins them out for the Christmas tree trade. In fact in New Brunswick this has become quite an industry, and I am told that last fall nearly 10 million trees were shipped from that province. The point I wish to make is that a farmer may farm his wood lot, he may farm his spruce and fir trees for the Christmas trade, or he may fish along the edge of his farm, but it appears that this type of farming is not to be recognized under the regulations HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Cavers of the Canadian farm loan board. The regu- lations should be broadened so that greater assistance may be given to the farmers in Westmorland county and all New Brunswick, and so drafted that it will be much easier than it is now for such farmers to obtain loans. I shall not take up the time of the house to mention the many benefits we have re- ceived which have been provided by the Liberal party for the people of New Bruns- wick, but I do want to mention in closing that we are not as poor or as hard up as the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam made out earlier today. Mr. H. P. Cavers (Lincoln): Mr. Speaker, at the outset I should like to take this oppor- tunity to congratulate the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne, not because it has become a customary practice to do so, but because of the excellent man- ner in which they acquitted themselves on Friday last. We have been told that the hon. member for Verdun has an outstanding background as a scholar and a jurist in his native prov- ince. Those of us who come from the prov- ince of Ontario know the member for Trinity as a prominent athlete, an outstanding scholar and a notable member of the bar of this province. I am sure that both these members will represent the people of their constituencies in a manner that will do credit to themselves and to the provinces from which they come. The past twelve months have brought many new obligations to Canada in the sphere of international affairs. Canada has assumed the responsibility of endeavouring to work out a satisfactory armistice in Indo-China during the past six months. Our representa- tives have attended conferences in London and Paris in order to bring about a European alliance and unite the countries of western Europe. We in Canada endeavoured to be a genial host to representatives who came to this country in connection with the Colombo plan conference. In all these projects our delegations have contributed their sincere and faithful efforts to maintain peace among men of good will. It is traditional that representatives who come here and the people of Canada gen- erally think very much alike as to what our position should be in the matter of inter- national affairs. During the past summer I had the honour of being one of the delega- tion that attended the commonwealth parlia- mentary conference in Nairobi. One of the things noticeable there was ýthat our dele- gates, regardless of their political affiliations \Ir. Murphy (Westmorland).] in Canada, all thought alike as far as the fundamentals of freedom, security and humanity were concerned. The Canadian people expect us to show the same united front in opposition to tyranny, oppression and aggression in dealing with international matters in this house. Canada is united at the present time as never before in ber history in those things which are most im- portant to the people of this country. This state of union in our country reflects credit on the wisdom, foresight and veracity of our national leaders both past and present. The present administration has been re- sponsible in the past for many measures of social reform, so it is not surprising to me to see reflected in the speech from the throne certain refinements to many of these social reforms. We must admit that there are certain patches of unemployment throughout the country. These matters require attention, and the people of Canada will be glad to know that amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act are being introduced this session at the earliest possible moment. These amendments will provide a measure of relief for those people who are unemployed. The scale of supplementary payments will be placed on a par with regular payments. Labour organizations throughout the country are looking forward to a general overhaul, as forecast, of the Unemployment Insurance Act itself. As one of the members of the veterans affairs comrnittee of this house, I was proud to learn that certain amendments were being introduced at this session dealing with the war veterans allowance. Veterans' groups throughout the country will welcome these proposed amendments. With the hon. mem- ber for Welland (Mr. McMillan), I attended meetings of veterans' groups in the Niagara peninsula before coming here. I am sure these groups are not asking for the ultimate and that they will be satisfied with the increase in basic rates and the raising of the ceiling on permissible incomes which will be provided in the amendments to be sub- mitted by the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Lapointe). I am pleased to note that some amend- ments will be made to the Blind Persons Act. I cannot think of a greater handicap any person can have than blindness. These blind persons bear their burdens cheerfully and admirably. During the past three months I have had occasion to visit the blind persons of our community. Many of them said to me that they find it most difficult to provide a normal existence for themselves. I should like to congratulate the Canadian National Institute for the Blind on providing some JANUARY 12, 1955 education for leaders whose duty it is to supervise the activities of blind people and to plan entertainment and recreational facili- ties for them. Training courses in arts and crafts enable the blind to supplement their small pensions. We provide for them the opportunity to conduct curio booths and newsstands in our public buildings, railway depots and hospital foyers. If these people have the industry, initiative and courage to develop their talents, and if they have the perseverance and ability ta earn small incomes, I believe they should be given some special preferment in the matter of their earnings. Although it may not be provided in the present amendments, I look forward to the day when blind persons may be able to accept pensions without the imposition of a means test at all. I was happy to note that the administra- tion intends to embark on a satisfactory policy of public works. The people of St. Catharines, whom I have the honour to rep- resent, are gratified that the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters) has seen fit to provide a federal public building in that city. This accommodation is greatly needed in a community that has shown unusual expansion in the past decade. There is a great need for proper accommodation for federal offices in our community. We feel that we have another public works project in our area that requires immediate attention. I refer to the clean-up of the old Welland canal. Three canals have been built across the face of the Niagara peninsula by federal governments during the past century. These canals were built to provide a more expeditious route for shipping to avoid the natural barrier -at Niagara Falls. The unused Welland canal, which passes through Thorold, Merritton, St. Catharines and Port Dalhousie, has become an unsightly, pestilential cess- pool. The municipal governments in the area have come to an agreement as to the method that should be followed in cleaning up this unsightly mess. They have decided to remove the locks, fI in the banks and narrow the channel. I say the municipalities have come to. an agreement. They have agreed on the method of construction. They have not agreed as to the proportion of cost, and it is hoped that the Department of Transport will be generous to these municipalities in its con- tribution toward the cost of construction. In addition to improving the general contour of the area, the project will provide useful employment for residents of the adjoining municipalities. 50433-9j The Address-Mr. Cavers I should like also to bring to the attention of the Minister of Transport (Mr. Marler) a difficulty which has arisen near the Welland canal. The present Welland ship canal is crossed by the Queen Elizabeth way in the township of Grantham at Homer. By reason of the fact that the bridge must be raised and lowered many times during the shipping season, frequent interruptions have caused great delay and confusion in the traffic which travels along the Queen Elizabeth way. I hope that engineers of the Department of Transport and the Ontario department of highways may devise some method which will relieve this confusion and avoid the bottle- neck that now exists. It is a matter that requires the co-operation of the two levels of government. An early meeting, I hope,will be held when some of the residents of our area will discuss the matter in a more elaborate way with the Minister of Transport. This is not a problem which concerns only the residents of my constituency, although they are directly affected. It is of indirect concern to the travelling public of many provinces of Canada, and many of our guests who come from several of the states of the union to the south. During the past six weeks Canadian min- isters of the crown have been engaged in endeavouring to get the United States of America and the United Kingdom to agree to certain provisions for the overhaul of the general agreement on tariffs and trade. Great efforts have been made by the right hon. Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), who has attended negotiations in London, Washington and Geneva. While the efforts he has máde have not met with the success we would like, I am convinced that the situa- tion will clarify itself. Present reports com- ing from Washington indicate that the Presi- dent and congress may be more amenable in the future. It was encouraging to hear the minister say that further efforts would bemade to see if this agreement could be carried out. The Minister of Trade and Commerce has been quoted as saying that "the collapse of GATT would be the worst possible thing that could happen; it would be a catastrophe to the free world." It is our hope that an agreement may still be reached which will be mutually advantageous to ourselves and to all other member nations. I should not allow this opportunity to pass without saying something about the proposal to amend the rules of this house. We heard the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) say yesterday that this subject would be handed to a special committee for discussion during this session. I am sure that the amendment of our rules would do much to expedite the 132 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Cavers conduct of business here. The Prime Min- of the nation in a businesslike and efficient ister endeavoured to give us some idea of his manner and with reasonable dispatch. They thinking in the matter when he arranged that ask us to give them an honest and conscienti- the mover and seconder of the address in ous administration of affairs. We can do reply to the speech from the throne would tbis without long, laboured addresses in speak on the same day as the address itself this chamber. When these amendments are was delivered. This would indicate to me a presented, I feel it will be a step in the right desire on his part that we should make better direction, and the measure should receive use of the time at our disposal here. support from ail parts of the house. It is my opinion that the speeches of private I have been reminded that I have spoken members should be limited to 20 minutes. I for some time. I think I have now completed believe the proposal would be to limit 20 minutes, so I thank you, gentlemen. speeches to 30 minutes. Mr. Hees: As it is now ten minutes of six, An hon. Member: You have spoken for 25 may I move the adjournment of the debate? minutes now. Mr. Depuiy Speaker: Is that agreeable to Mr. Cavers: I believe I have spoken for hon. rnembers? about 18 minutes. The Prime Minister and Mr. Marris: I have no particular objection, members of the cabinet, the leader and certain designated members of the opposition, the Mf Speaker bu wefhae been tin leader of the C.C.F. group and the leader of f ti e ouning bere he u Ihn the Social Credit group might be given 40 minutes. It seems to me that the average mem- te o hing w ht to membe ber in this house could very well clarify his would like to say. thoughts and present them within a period of 20 minutes. I believe also that a limited time Mr. Rowe: It is Wednesday night. could be allocated for the speech from the On motion o! Mr. Hees the debate was throne and the budget debate. This would not deprive any member of the opportunity to speak, but it would improve the quality of debate and shorten the length of the BUSINESS 0F THE HOUSE session. Mr. Harris moved the adjournment o! tbe I have addressed groups throughout my bouse. constituency on this subject in order to gain He said: Tomorrow, after orders of tbe some idea of how our constituents feel about day, we shaH take second reading of tbe bill the matter. I have talked with others in with respect to the Unemployment Insurance private conversation. The Canadian people Act, and then revert to this debate. do not wish to lose respect for parliament, Motion agreed to and the bouse adjourned but they do feel we suould conduct the atfairs at 5.50 p.m. HOUSE OF COMMONS Thursday, January 13, 1955 The house met at 2.30 p.m. RIPPLE ROCK TABLING OF REPORT ON REMOVAL Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Public Works): I beg leave to table a report, pre- pared at the request of my colleague the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) on the removal of Ripple Rock, which is a submerged navigational hazard in Seymour narrows, about 100 miles north of Vancouver. This report has been prepared by the associate committee for navigational facilities on the west coast, established by the national research council to study this project. This committee was established after two previous attempts to remove the rock by surface methods, using techniques then known, were unsuccessful. This report con- cludes that the rock can be successfully removed either by surface operations, using present-day techniques, or by tunnelling. It recommends in favour of the latter as being the more positive approach. I have asked Mr. Victor Dolmage, an eminent consulting geologist, who has had wide experience on the Kitimat project and other undertakings of this general nature, to indicate whether, in his opinion, this report could be translated into an engineering approach to the problem complete with plans and specifications. Mr. Dolmage has now reported that in his opinion this is entirely practical, and he has been retained to prepare the required plans and specifications. It is anticipated that tenders will be called and that the work will be done under Mr. Dolmage's general super- vision, on behalf of the Department of Public Works. It is estimated that it will require some six months to prepare plans and specifications and that the rock can be removed within a space of two years after the contract is awarded. It is estimated that the total cost involved will be in the vicinity of $2 5 mil- lion. Funds will be sought in the supple- mentary estimates for the next fiscal year in an appropriate amount to cover expenditures incurred in 1955-56. (Later:] Mr. T. S. Barnett (Comox-Alberni): Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Public Works arising out of his statement. Can the minister give assur- ance to the house that the government will take ail necessary steps to protect the resi- dents in the vicinity of Ripple Rock against any possible loss or damage to property arising out of the blasting of the rock. Mr. Winters: I can say that is one of the factors that have been taken into considera- tion. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS PUBLIC ACCOUNTS AND AUDITOR GENERAL'S REPORT Mr. W. M. Benidickson (for the Minister of Finance): On behalf of the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, I should like to table the public accounts and the report of the Auditor General for the year ended March 31, 1954. CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS PROPOSED LEASE OF NEW HOTEL IN MONTREAL On the orders of the day: Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): Yesterday the hon. member for Oxford asked me if any protests had been received from the hotel association of Canada in connection with the administration of the proposed Canadian National hotel in Montreal. I told him that I did not think I had received any, but over the week end a letter had been received from Mr. Caswell, executive chairman of that organization, con- taining a resolution which I think does amount to a protest in that connection and which asks for reconsideration of the matter. Yesterday or this morning, I am not sure which, a letter was received from the Al- berta hotel association, enclosing a copy of HOUSE OF COMMONS Inquiries of the Ministry a resolution which seems to be in the same terms as the other resolution. I am informed that similar letters were addressed to my colleague the Minister of Transport, and that the resolution has been referred to the authorities of the Canadian National Rail- ways. SALE OF HOTELS-PROTECTION OF RIGHTS OF EMPLOYEES On the orders of the day: Mr. Alistair Stewart (Winnipeg North): I should like to direct a question to the Min- ister of Transport. Can the minister give the house any information about the sale of Canadian National hotels, with particular reference to the safeguarding of the rights of the employees concerned? Hon. George C. Marler (Minister of Trans- port): I may say that I received notice of this question just a few minutes ago. I shall endeavour to answer it on the earliest pos- sible occasion. BOOK OF REMEMBRANCE SECOND WORLD WAR-PROBABLE DATE OF COMPLETION On the orders of the day: Mr. 0. L. Jones (Okanagan Boundary): Will the Minister of Veterans Affairs say whether the government has yet decided about the placing of the second world war book of remembrance? If so, when will the book be placed in its permanent home? Hon. Hugues Lapointe (Minister of Veterans Affairs): This matter is under active consideration at the present time. For the information of my bon. friend and members of the house I may say the book of remembrance for world war II, which was expected to be ready at the end of 1955, might not be completed until a later date. IRRIGATION SOUTH SASKATCHEwAN RIVER-INQUIRY AS TO PRESENT POSITION On the orders of the day: Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Alberi): I should like to direct a question to the Prime Minister. What is the present position of negotiations that have been going on between the Saskatchewan government and the federal government with regard to the South Saskatchewan dam and irrigation project? Is it a fact that a tentative agreement has been arrived at as the basis of a distribution of costs as between the federal and pro- vincial governments? [Mr. St. Laurent.] Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): There has been no tentative agree- ment arrived at, Mr. Speaker, as the basis of a distribution of costs because there has not yet been any decision by the federal government that it could take the respon- sibility of recommending this project to parliament as one that would be in the national interests of Canada generally. Mr. Diefenbaker: May I ask an additional question? Is it not a fact that the federal government has submitted to the govern- ment of Saskatchewan some tentative agree- ment? Mr. St. Laurent: No, I would not say it is a fact that the government of Canada has sub- mitted to the government of Saskatchewan a tentative agreement. I understand officials of the P.F.R.A. have been discussing with officials of the Saskatchewan government what terms might be acceptable to the government of Saskatchewan if a decision were made. And I understand that my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) has had some interviews, discussing the draft that has been prepared by the officiais with the premier and members of the Saskatchewan government. But that is as far as the nego- tiations have reached at this time. I have seen this draft that was prepared, and there were provisions in it which I feel quite sure we would not be prepared to rec- ommend to parliament. That is where the matter stands at the present time. Mr. Diefenbaker: Was that the provincial draft, sir? Mr. St. Laurent: Well, I cannot say that it is a provincial draft. I am rather under the impression it is a draft that was prepared by officials of the P.F.R.A., who have always been convinced that it was a project that should be proceeded with. Mr. Coldwell: May I ask a supplementary question. Are we to understand that the Minister of Agriculture in these negotiations has been negotiating on his own? Mr. St. Laurent: Oh, no. Mr. Coldwell: Because the Saskatchewan government is under the impression that the latest proposal is sent from the government of Canada to the government of Saskatche- wan. That is the way it has been put to me. Mr. St. Laurent: The minister has not been negotiating on his own. But if there is any impression that this is a proposal for the carrying out of the project by the govern- ment of Canada, it is a misapprehension; I think they are well aware that there has been no decision made yet to go ahead with the project at this time. JANUARY 13, 1955 COMBINES INVESTIGATION ACT LOSS LEADERS-INQTJIRY AS TO TABLING OF REPORT On the orders of the day: Mr. Donald M. Fleming : We do not object to the bill being read the third time today, Mr. Speaker, so that the benefits contained therein can be on the statute books just as soon as possible. However, I think the government sbould realize from the debate that bas taken place today that, although we approve o! the bill as far as it goes, we are flot satîsfied with the extent to which it goes. We appeal to the minister to consider, when he prepares the larger bill he is going to introduce, the points in relation to supplementary benefits that have been raised, particularly the points that have been stressed by the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclougb), the bon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway (Mr. MacInnis), the hon. member for Win- nipeg North (Mr. Stewart) and others. We want bim to realize that, so far as we are concernied, the passing o! this bill does not mean we are finally satisfied with the supplementary benefit aspect o! it, let alone the other shortcomings o! the govern- ment in s0 far as the unemployment situation is concernied. We urge hlm to introduce that other bill at the earliest possible date. I can tell him, as I can tell the leader of the bouse, that the names o! the members o! our group wbo will serve on the committee on industrial relations bave aiready been banded to the chie! government whip. We are prepared to go to work on the larger bill at the earliest possible date. We are serving notice on bim, too, that we feel that even that larger bill, along with this one, must not be regarded by the govern- ment as a sufficient answer in this session to the serious probiem o! unempioyment. We are prepared to let this bil bave third read- ing today, but we want furtber and more eff ective action at the earliest possible date. Mr. Solon E. Law e with these problems. We have flot catalogued all the gavernment's failures in the amendment, but we have catalogued some of them. But these do aller basic cansiderations, and they are aur concep- tion o! what is needed immediately by way of a gavernment programn. And ta that extent they are an expression of our want of con- fidence in this government. Sir, the first o! the subjects dealt with in aur amendment relates ta trade. As we point out in the amendment, there bas been a serious failure in that respect on the part o! the governm-ent, and we express aur regret that His Excellency's advisers- -have failed ta take ar ta recommend the neces- sary measures: (a) ta retain and expand Canada's markets abraad for aur praduction, particularly of wheat and other praducts. Canada's international transactions on cur- rent accaunt resulted in the year 1953 in a deficit o! $439 million, as compared with a surplus on current transactions in 1952 amauntiug ta $164 million. The figures are not yet camplete for 1954, but the deficit on current transactions for the first ten mouths of the calendar year 1954 was $330 million. This therefore is a seriaus problem, and must engage the attention of all hon. members. In the first place, sir, there bas been a seriaus decline in aur cominadity trade. Taking the first ten months of 1954-because the figures are camplete only ta October 31, 1954--our imports as compared with the same ten manths in 1953 shawed a reduction of 8 per cent. Our imports from the United States were down by il per cent, and from the United Kingdom 9 per cent. Now let us look at the export figures. For those same ten months, as campared- with The Address-Mr. Fleming the corresponding ten months of 1953, aur total Canadian exparts showed a reduction of 8 -2 per cent. Our exports ta the United States were down 5.5 per cent, aur exports ta the United Kingdom were dawn 10 per cent and those ta other cauntries af the commonwealth were down 20 per cent. The main factar in the aver-all decline in aur exparts; has been the decrease in aur exparts af wheat, wheat flour and ather grains. The decline in aur trade is seriaus. The dedline in these ten months fallawed a similar decline which has been gaing on naw far same two years, and it is seriaus enaugh bath in dollar figures and in volume figures ta demand the attention of the gavernment. There is another seriaus factor in aur trading pasitian--and we do not raise it now for the first time. It is the extent ta whicb aur trading eggs have been disproportionately and dangerously placed in ane basket. In these ten months of which we are speaking, namely the first ten months of 1954, aur exports ta the United States were 60-4 per cent of aur total exports. And if you will look at the corresponding figures for the first ten months of 1953 you will find a similar situation. Indeed, looking at aur total trade with the United States, bath export and import, we will see that the proportion or percentage has remained constant. In the first ten months of 1953 and the first ten months of 1954, alike 67 per cent of aur total trade, bath import and export, was done with the United States. Again we draw the attention of the govern- ment ta this dangerous situation-not that we want ta curtail exports ta the United States, but we want ta see much more energetic and aggressive meas-ures used to expand aur exports elsewhere. And, above ail, we want the government ta corne ta grips with the essence of the Canadian trade problem, which has been featured by a decline i Canadian trade with the United Kingdom. Sir, this must be said about aur trade with the United States, that aur exports ta that country are largely of Canadian raw materials, materials drawn from aur soil, and which In very substantial measure are sent abroad ta be processed in the United States. We in Canada should be seeking mare effective methods of processing more of aur raw materials at home. Oue of the best examples of what has been accomplished ln that regard is ta be found in the pulp and paper industry. Had it not been for the firm action of some provincial governments, notably that of Ontario, led by the Hon. George Drew, and others-and the province of Quebec is also a very good example-we would stlll be exporting our forest products in their original HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Fleming form. Cutting regulations of the provincial governments have assisted greatly in the development of this industry here at home, and it has provided needed employment for Canadians. But, sir, lest any think that this pattern or picture of decline in Canadian trade is part .of a world-wide pattern, let us take a corrective look at the figures. The figures I now give the house are figures of world trade drawn from international monetary fund publications. They are figures of total world trade, that is to say of the non-communist world. These figures have all been placed on a common basis and are expressed in United States dollars. Necessary adjustments are made in these statistics for purposes of reaching a common basis; and Canadian trade figures, like those of other countries, have been converted for that purpose. When I speak about quarterly statistics, it will be understood that these figures are designed to express the annual rate as the inference may be drawn from the quarterly figures. What has been the trend in world trade in the last two years? Sir, these figures show unmistakably that the world trade trend has been upward in this period while Canadian trade has been going downward. In 1953 the total annual volume of world trade, both export and import, expressed in figures for the first quarter, amounted to $146 billion. The figure for the corresponding first quarter of 1954 was $148 billion, indicating an increase of $2 billion. In the second quarter of 1954 the increase was from the annual rate of $153 billion of world trade in the second quarter of 1953 to $158.7 billion. Unmistak- ably, Mr. Speaker, the volume and the dollar value of world trade have both been rising. Against that, Canada's figures show a decline. Canada's percentage of the total of world trade is likewise declining. In 1953, Canada's percentage of the total world trade, both ex- port and import, was 6-2 per cent. In the first half of 1954, which takes us to the last date for which figures are available, it bas dropped to something like 5 .5 per cent. It is a signifi- cant decrease, one that should command attention and concern. But, sir, let us look further at the figures of British trade, and our trade with the United Kingdom. In his speech on Monday, even in its most soothing tones, there was a gloomy, an unmistakably gloomy, note in the Prime Minister's remarks when be came to the subject of our trade with the United King- dom. It was indeed the gloomiest and most futile part of his entire speech. While Ca- nada's trade has been going back, the trade [Mr. Flpming.] of the United Kingdom has been increasing. British exports in 1953-these are again ex- pressed in terms of United States dollars- aggregated $7,525,000,000 United States dol- lars. The figures are not complete for 1954 but they indicate-those figures that were available up to the end of the third quarter of 1954-that British export trade will probably rise to $8 billion United States dollars, an increase over 1953 of about 7 per cent in value. We are perhaps more concerned with British imports, especially our proportion of Britain's imports from abroad. In 1953, Britain's im- ports totalled $9,366,000,000 United States dollars. The figures are complete only to the end of the third quarter of 1954, but they indicate that we may expect they will aggre- gate about $9,500,000,000. There is an in- crease of something like 2 per cent in Brit- ish imports in 1954 over 1953. But what about Canada's proportion of this increased British trade, this trade that we so badly need, this British market that has been our tradi- tional market, our best market, our most stable and most dependable market, partic- ularly for the large agricultural surpluses of this country? What do the figures show about our proportion of the British trade? Here is the proportion of British exports to Canada: In 1938, 4-4 per cent; in 1953, 6 per cent; in 1954, for the first eleven months, our propor- tion has dropped to 4.9 per cent. A very significant drop from the 6 per cent of 1953! But let us look then at the British imports from Canada. In 1938 British imports from Canada amounted to 8-6 per cent of British total imports. In 1953 they amounted to 9-1 per cent. In 1954, for the first eleven months, that had dropped to 7 -8 per cent, a very serious decrease, Mr. Speaker. I mentioned earlier that much of the drop in our trade, particularly export trade, has been traceable to the substantial reduction in our export of wheat, wheat flour and grain. Why has this special significance? The rea- sons are twofold, sir. In the first place, wheat is a government monopoly as to its marketing and export; but there is another reason. Wheat plays an almost unique part in the health and strength of the Canadian economy. What has been this country's rec- ord in the export of wheat? Well, for the crop year that ended on July 31, 1953, we exported a total of 385-5 million bushels. For the crop year ended July 31, 1954, that figure had dropped to 255-1 million bushels, a drop, sir, of 35 per cent. For the crop year ended July 31, 1953, our exports of wheat and wheat flour to the United Kingdom aggregated 122.9 million bushels. In the crop year ended July JANUARY 13, 1955 31, 1954, that export total had dropped to 82 million bushels, a drop of one-third, sir, as compared with the previous year. Is it any wonder, sir, that we draw the attention of the house, with a very urgent degree of con- cern, to this lamentable drop in Canadian wheat exports? If you look further, sir, at the drop in the income of the farmers of Canada and con- sider that farm income in Canada has now dropped to the lowest point in seven years, that for the past several years we have wit- nessed year by year a drop that has averaged about 11 or 12 per cent as compared with the previous year, you begin to have some appreciation of how serious is the prob- lem confronting the basic element of agri- culture in the Canadian economy. What have we heard froin the govern- ment? It was a pathetic thing we heard in the speech of the Prime Minister on Monday when, in relation to the export of Canadian wheat, he took comfort out of the fact that our proportion of British imports of wheat had dropped less than the United States but more than the Argentine and Australia. Well, sir, there are only four of these great wheat exporting countries. The other three countries are our competitors. The two that the Prime Minister concedes as having a better record than ours are not countries that have anything like the amount of wheat to export that we have. Why should Canada not be in first place in the proportion of the exports that are going to the United King- dom market that Canadian exporters enjoyed? Why should we be satisfied with third place, in terms of holding our proportion, as the Prime Minister apparently is? Has the agri- cultural economy of this country not come to a pretty pass; has the marketing of wheat under the government's monopolistic control not come to a pretty pass in Canada when we have to depend upon adverse climatic conditions to contribute a solution to the problem of the Canadian wheat surplus that this government proved itself incapable of solving? The sigh of relief, the political sigh of relief, froin the government opposite when the promising wheat crop of the west turned into a failure last summer could have been heard almost around the world. Mr. Rowe: They almost prayed for bad weather. Mr. Fleming: It has been a poor perform- ance on the part of the government in mar- keting Canadian wheat. They have been far too confident, far too cocksure, far too arrogant, and the pity of it all is, sir, that the burden of all this is going to rest upon The Address-Mr. Fleming the Canadian farmer. The responsibility rests upon the government but it is the farmer who has to bear the burden. There is to be a prime ministers' confer- ence in London later this month. That con- ference, sir, we in this party regard as of very high importance; at least it is a con- ference which could have very high impor- tance if the government would indicate it is prepared to take it seriously and exploit the opportunities that it offers. First of all, sir, what of the agenda of that conference? Sir Winston Churchill has said that any subject may be raised there, that any delegation may raise any subject. Mr. Menzies, the Prime Minister of Aus- tralia, has indicated that two of the subjects that he proposes to raise are trade and finance. What country represented at that confer- ence has a greater concern over trade than has Canada? Yet the Prime Minister has not a word to say in this house, even in response to questions, about the agenda of that con- ference. Where is all the talk about Canadian sovereignty? We have as much right to raise questions at that conference and to say what should be the agenda subjects to come before the conference as any other nation of the commonwealth. Trade should be given a place of first importance in the discussions of the prime ministers at that conference. But, no. I asked the Prime Minister the day before yesterday if he could say anything about the agenda of the conference, and what did we get in return? We had just the lame statement that nothing could be said on the subject. Mr. Dupuis: Blast our way into the markets. Mr. Fleming: The hon. gentleman can go on living in the distant past as long as he wishes. It is about time he and his party came up to date and faced realistically prob- lems that are not 25 years removed but are right on the doorstep of the Canadian people today. If parliamentary institutions enjoyed here in Ottawa the health that they ought to enjoy, no Canadian prime minister would go to an important commonwealth conference without having first invited a discussion in parliament on the position that he was going to take on behalf of his country in the deliberations of that conference. But such is the treatment that this government metes out to our Canadian parliament, such is the conspiracy of silence of this government on important national issues, such apparently 154 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Fleming is the minimum importance that this govern- of Canada and the premier of Quebec if the ment attaches to this commonwealth prime proper policy which we have advocated had ministers' conference, there is not to be a been followed before, namely, the caliing of word said in this house even on the subject a general dominion-provincial conference. of the agenda. A fine demonstration of con- This is something of concern to ail Canada; tempt for the parliament of Canada! it concerns ail the provinces of Canada. It is Mr. Rowe: He will tell us when he comes not just an issue between Ottawa and Quebec. back. It is small wonder then that with this further back.conspiracy of silence the suspicions of the Mr. Fleming: We might at least have had other provinces have been aroused. a debate on the subject, but apparently we What has happened? Why this silence? are not going to have, even during the Mr. Duplessis has made it known that his course of this discursive debate on the ad- dress, any statement of the position the federal government many weeks ago and Prime Minister is going to take in London. apparently action has been awaited on the During the course of his speech on Monday part of the government opposite. What are we heard on this subject nothing but words they waiting for? In the name of parliament of amiable futility, remote unconcern and gloomy despondency. calling of a dominion-provincial conference, We have not forgotten that when the Prime the place where matters of this kind ought Minister returned from his commonwealth ta be discussed. tour on March 18, 1954, a tour undertaken We have asked in aur amendment for with the good wishes of all the parties in this some relief for the Canadian taxpayer from house, a tour to which we had attached the heavy burden of taxation. We have such high hopes, he did not during the course of his long report say one good word for that important institution, the British common- producer and in the name of the Canadian wealthconsumer. We are in an era of competition. wealh o natonsflota wrd.Jobs of Canadians are at stake. The health We in this part of the house think it is of the Canadian ecanamy is under assault. about time there was some indication from In the face of the kind of competition which the government that it attaches not only Canadian producers are having ta meet today political but economic importance to this the government must do more than preach institution, this commonwealth of nations. the virtues of increasing aur imports, as they When Canada is represented at a conference are apparently content'ta do, judging from of that kind, if Canada means to make that the speeches made during the course of this conference effective, Canada should exploit debate. to the limit the importance of increased trade We should tell the government, and we within the commonwealth. shouîd tell the C.C.F. as well, that exports While I am speaking of conferences I should are a good deal more than a mere by-product like to renew the demand that this party has of imports. The Canadian producers, in made times without number for a dominion- facing the kind of competition they are con- provincial conference. The need for such a fronted with now, must have material assist- conference is greater today than it was when ance in reducîng their costs of production this subject was last raised during the 1954 if they are going ta meet this competition and session. Since the last session some re- continue ta pravide jobs for Canadian markable things have happened. Last Sep- workmen. tember the Prime Minister girded on his This government, which is taking virtually armour and launched a carefully calculated haîf of the incare o! every Canadian corpora- and planned attack on the policies of Quebec. tion, which is levying heavy sales and excise He succeeded in arousing feelings against his taxes, must take this problem seriously and own province. It was no contribution to meet its responsibility by reducing this heavy national unity that he made. But let us load which is hampering the Canadian pro- pass on. ducer today and which is costing the jobs Where is this issue today? Somehow or of Canadian workmen. other on the field of battle, that field of the We have asked as welI for an end o! Prime Minister's choosing, there suddenly overnment waste and extravagance. We descended a lull. The Prime Minister called off the crusade, he broke off the engagement. have asked that the government dedicate its There were some talks, but following the efforts ta increasing efficiency because that talks there has been again complete silence. efflciency will create economy. But the There would have been no necessity or government continues ta be imperviaus ta occasion for talks between the Prime Minister appeals of this kind. They turn a deaf ear [Mr. Fleming.] JANUARY 13, 1955 when appeals corne from this side o! the bouse for elimination of waste and extrava- gance and the reduction o! taxation. They have thwarted persistently every effort that bas been made in titis bouse to inqu.tre into the degree of efficiency in the government service with a view to improving it. Where reports have been made before on condi- tions in the government service, exposing inefficiency and other things there, the government has resorted to every stratagem and every resource to prevent the condi- tions dîsclosed in such reports from becoming known in thîs bouse and to the Canadian people. It is true that one report did escape outside the government's iron curtain, the Currie report of two years ago, but we, may be sure, ani we have seen abundant evidence of this, that the government intends that no other fugitive shall escape outside tbat government iron curtain. Indeed tbey made the most strenuous and sedulous efforts to round up tbat fugitive and get bim, back behind the iron curtain after be escaped. Throughout the government bas shown the most blatant contempt for the institution of parliament. Upon the shoulders of every government supporter in this house rests the unhappy responsibility o! bearing whatever part be bas played in allowing the govern- ment to impose this iron curtain that bas denied to parliament; and to the Canadian people information that ought to have been laid before them. Yes, governiment supporters by their docility and submissiveness bave assumed their share o! the responsibility for wbat bas happened. When the government is preaching to Cana- dian producers tbat they must be efficient and competitive, and elirninate waste and extrava- gance, let them begin at home and start by cleaning their own bouse. In that regard I corne now-and I wish I bad time to dwell on this subject-to some- thing that bas corne to light witbin the past four or five days. I refer to the decision of tbe income tax appeal board in the case of No. 227, appellant v. the Minister of National Revenue. This particular appeal was heard by Mr' Com- missioner Fisher and his reasons for judg- ment were, apparently, banded down last Saturday. I bave endeavoured to find out when the case was heard. Today I telephoned the income tax appeal board for that purpose because evidently Mr. Commissioner Fisher heard the case sorne tirne ago. 1 was told that the file is in the hands of the chairman o! tbe board, and instructions bave been issued that The Address-Mr. Fleming no information is to be handed out with reference to titis case. I was flot asking any improper question. I was flot asking the name of the appellant. I was simply asking the date on which the commissioner heard the case. Mr. McCann: I can give you that. Mr. Fleming: Will the minister do so? Mr. McCann: November. Mr. Fleming: Last November? Mr. McCann: Yes, about November 8 or 10. Mr. Fleming: Then judgment on this case has been reserved for two months. The evi- dence referred to in the course of the reasons for judgment must have been given at least two months ago, but judgment was flot written until- Mr. McCann: I did flot say written, I said heard. Mr. Fleming: I said the judgment was only handed down Saturday. Mr. MtCann: You said the judgment was given two months ago. Mr. Fleming: I did not. I think we will have to ask the minister to have something done about his hearing. I said this judgment was handed down last Saturday. I asked when the case was heard and the minister said two months ago. He has given us inf or- mation in that regard that I was flot able to obtain. The decision was handed down last Saturday, and I say that now for the third or fourth time. It will be observed in the reasons for judgment that the case was heard in camera at the request of the appellant. I ar n ot interested today in discussing the merîts of the legal question under appeal. The ques- tion turned on whether certain expenditures made in the improvement; of a property were lin their nature capital, or whether the ex- penditures were allowable as deduction under section 12 of the Income Tax Act as expendi-ý tures laid out for the purpose of earning the income of the corporation. We do not know who the appellant was, but I wrnl read a few sentences from the reasons for judgment. Here is one paragraph: In the year 1951, the appellant company decided that it should purchase a property which could be used for entertainment purposes. May I point out th-at it was the income of this company for 1951 that was under con- sideration. The paragraph continues: Apparently the appellant was convinced that It was necessary to have a private country residence where officiais and officers of the various govern- mental bodies could be entertained prior to the HOUSE 0F COMMONS The Address-Mr. Fleming negotiation of goveramnent contrscts, and a property was found which it was felt would be suitable for this purpose. Then we are toid that the expenditures in that year in improving this property were as follows: Buildings: Painting .......................... $6,500.00 Roof ................................ 478.78 Plumbing and heating..............947.54 Electric wiring, etc ................. 2,389.73 Floor cleaning ...................... 2352.00 Repairs-wood, cernent, etc ......... 1,119.91 And then, sir, what about landscaping? Listen to this. Landscaping Paving and grading..............$ 4,000.00 Trees............................... 663.00 Lawn............................. 11,338.06 The total expenditure amounted to $27,- 789.02. The commissioner, ini further refer- ence to, this expenditure, states: These expenditures were made for repairs and improvements to the property, which was used, to some extent at least, for entertainiment purposes during the latter months of the year. That year was 1951, more than three years ago, and there has been no suggestion yet that the building has since been used for any different purpose. Now, sir, it is evident that this matter was news to the Prime Minister's ears when this decision was handed down. But we have been toid in a Canadian Press dispatch some- thing about the nature nf this Shangri-La. We have been toid that the Canadian Press bas iearned from reliabie sources th-at the entire property is protected by a formidable fence, the only entrance being a guarded gateway. Visitors had to be vouched for at the main lodge before being admitted. This quotation then foiiows: "Accommodation and entertainment is provlded on a most lavish scale. wlth every convenience for the officiai being romanced. Greenhouses provide fresh flowers in Profusion, and the entire establish- ment is air-conditioned.' Sir, it would need to be air-conditioned because this thing smells to bigh heaven. The quotation. proceeds: 'ht is staffed by an in-pressive array of servants. from butiers to handymen. Not one of them will discuss anything that transpires lnside the fence, but stories of sonne of the parties there have been fabulous." Now, Mr. Speaker, we are toid that this is not very far from Ottawa. It is close enough to Ottawa to make it quite convenient. It is not the officiais of some distant municipality or province they are concernied in entertaining or, as the report puts it, romaýncing. No one wishes to impose a Spartan existence upon federal government officiais. But, sir, the people of this country are entitied to feel that those wbo are [Mr. Fleming.] awarded federal government contracts obtain them strictiy on their merits, and flot; be- cause they have some inside track. Mr. McCann: Is this where the Ontario road contractors were entertained? Mr. Fleming: The Minister of National Revenue (Mr. McCann) shouid know that the Ontario government bas taken firm and resolute measures to deal with the situation the minister mentioned. I tbink the minister is the person best qualified in this house to suppiy an answer to tbis question because this is sometbing that arose within bis de- partment, and bis officers were acquainted witb it two montbs ago, but apparentiy the evidence in tbis case fell on deaf ears. If tle minister is iooking for Ontario precedents be migbt weil conclude that bis responsibiiity in matters of thîs kind is sucb that be ougbt to consider submnitting his resignation to His Excellency over wbat bas happened here. The waiis referred to were tbere for a purpose. Is it not significant, Mr. Speaker, and is it flot as eloquent as anytbing that bas yet happened in this bouse, tbat the minister and tbose wbo support this goverfi- ment greet tbis report witb iaugbter and ievity? Wbat better exampie could be found of the utter irresponsibiiity of tbis goverfi- ment and those wbo support it in tbe face of something tbat bas ail the earmarks of a major scandai, and certainiy a scandai tbat deserves investigation? Indeed, the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) acknowiedged only two days ago tbat tbis matter ought to be very carefuiiy investigated. If it comes to an investigation, we want something better tban tbe kind of investiga- tion we bave bad in tbe past; tbe boie-and- corner investigation, the resuits of wbicb bave neyer leaked out to the public. But tbis bas ieaked out to tbe public, and in the namne of tbe public we demand tbat this investigation be made public. If the Prime Minister is flot prepared to bave tbe proper public kind of investigation, tben we demand that the matter be investigated by a speciai committee of this bouse and that we be aiiowed to subpoena ail wbo are concerned in tbis case. We intend to make it our busi- ness to get to tbe bottom of tbe matter and see tbat the Canadian public is permitted to know everytbing tbey sbould know, and tbat means everytbing in relation to tbe use of tbis property. Wbat officiais used it? For wbat purpose? Who were entertained? Wbo did tbe entertaining? We want to know the answer to tbose and a tbousand more ques- tions. Witb notbing short of a f ull, compiete and searcbing investigation of tbis kind- yes, and a public investigation witb tbe most JANUARY 13, 1955 ,complete public disclosure of the contents, with f ull opportunity in this bouse to go into this matter and into every detail of it -will we be satisfied in the name of the Canadian people. Mr. Alistair Stewart (Wininipeg North): Mr. Speaker, I should like to bring the subject matter for the time being to sornething else not quite s0 exciting and perhaps not quite s0 controversial. I think that a great number of lion. members were as interested as was I when they saw in this morning's Montreal Gazette the report that perhaps a tax rentai agreement had been arrived at between the governiment of Canada and the province of Quebec. I hope that is so. I hope it is s0 on a fair and equitabie basis to ail con- cerned. 1 shouid like to see every province within this agreement, believing as I do that when every province is in it, then Canada as a nation will be so much stronger. We in the C.C.F. want ta see this agree- ment and we hope it wiil be achieved on the fairest terms to ail. We say again, as we have said in the past, that we insist without any qualification on the right of the people of Quebec ta their constitutional rigbts as well as the unwritten ones which are accepted in civilized society, just as we on the other hand ask for reciprocity and insist that we aiso have rights. But there is this one thing that I must point out. There is one price that we will not pay for Quebec participation and that is the wrecking of the tax agree- ments. I do not know what the facts are. I do not know whether or not the report was accurate or inaccurate. I therefore intend ta leave the situation at that point, hoping that an agreement has been arrived at and hoping that the agreement wili be good for Canada. If that is so then certainly we welcome such an agreement. I want ta say a few words about the unemployment situation. The other night my colleague the bon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Wincb), speaking in this debate, pointed out the masterly job which either the Liberal apologists or Liberal publicity men had achieved in seiling the people of Canada the concept of the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) as "Uncle Loule", an appellation which indicates affection. It is perhaps arguable that the Canadian people have no great regard for a paternal society and that therefore their desire is ail for an avuncular one. But the pity of it today is that this governiment, under the present avuncular society, is nevertheless making tens of thou- sands and hundreds of thousands of Canadians cry "uncle". I amn talking about those Cana- dians today wbo, througb no fault of their The Address-Mr. A. Stewart own, are unemployed, who cannot get work and who want to work. This government is apparently doing nothing about the situation. Last year it was obvious, from looking at the treasury benches, that there was a degree of lethargy and apathy which. I thought could flot have been increased. But this year it is even worse, with one exception. The Minister of Transport (Mr. Marier) bas not yet been contaminated with the lethargy which. afflicts the rest of his colleagues and I hope for his sake that such a thing neyer happens. I reinember reading a description of a British government some years ago. It was described as a governiment of exhausted volcanoes. Nobody would suggest that this government was a government of exhausted volcanoes because there would be no excuse for such an exaggeration. To describe it as a government of exhausted molehills might be more accurate; and I arn convinced that is what a great number of Canadians today think this governiment is. Not only is it apathetic and lethargic in the face of present social problems but it is self-satisfied. What is even worse, as we have been told by an excellent witness, it is incompetent. I arn not advancing my own concept of incompe- tence. I caîl upon the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) who knows bis colleagues much better than I do. Let me quote from page 40 of Hansard where my leader the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) read thîs extract from a speech of the Prime Minister: "We have a country where there should be work for everybody and if we are flot smnart enough to organize the economny of the nation to provide work for everybody we are incompetent.'l Manifestly the governiment is not smart enough to organize work for everybody. Therefore, by definition, the government is incompetent; and when the Prime Minister himself makes that assertion, who arn I ta disagree with him? Not only have we unemployment today but it is increasing and it is going to get worse. There is no plan or project that we have seen except the blasting of Ripple Rock out of the water. What is that going to do from the point of view of unemployment? What heip is being given to men whose lives are being squandered in idieness? That is the problemn which faces this house and that is what this governiment must answer for because within a few months there are going to be over a million people close to relief. That is not ta say that there wil be a million people unemployed but many of HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. A. Stewart those who today are unemployed have de- pendents; they have wives and children and they are going to be close to relief unless the government takes action to help them. I cannot altogether agree with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) when he regards his position in such a circumscribed way as he did this afternoon. I can perhaps agree that unemployment cannot be cured by legis- lation. However, unemployment can be greatly alleviated by sensible and reasonable fiscal policies which this government has not yet disclosed to us. I see this situation in my own city of Winnipeg where we are dependent for our prosperity on the well-being of the farmers. When the farmer's income has been cut, as it has been this year, we in the city are going to suffer. If you cut down the farmer's income, you eut down what he spends in the city. And if you eut down what he spends in the city, you create un- employment or you create short-time em- ployment and you have a demand for lower wages. Do that, and once again we are in the spiral of depression. I might give the house a case in point. Before I left Winnipeg a couple of weeks ago I was talking ta the bargaining com- mittee of a union which has been conducting negotiations with a particular employer. The employer in Winnipeg took this stand: In your last contract your starting wage was $1.22 an hour. It is now going to be $1 and if you do not like it, I can get all the men I want for 85 cents. I do not think he could get all the men he wanted for 85 cents but he certainly could get some. I cite that instance in order to show the dangerous situation which is prevailing where employers are deliberately, as a matter of policy, cutting down purchasing power still further. It is necessary that the government see that, as far as possible, purchasing power is restored in the widest possible way. But the government says: We have another method; when times get tough, we must go in for economizing. One of the aspects of econo- mizing which they introduce is that teams are apparently sent through each depart- ment and a little clerk is hoofed out here and another little clerk is booted out there, and economizing is the word used for that procedure. But there is no economy. There is no economizing going on when there are almost 300,000 people unemployed and human resources are being wasted. It is to that aspect of economy that I should like to see this government devote its time. There is a loss in income which can never be [Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North).] replaced. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris) ought to have some appreciation for this argument because, with unemploy- ment as it is now, there must be a loss in national income per week of at least $12 mil- lion, and within a few months' time it is going to be double that amount. Yet we have these hundreds of thousands unem- ployed, with little hope for them. What would the supporters of free enterprise in this house say if they saw capital being destroyed? I refer to capital either in the shape of finance or capital in the shape of things like machines, implements or build- ings. They would be howling murder about it. Yet you are destroying the capital of men when you destroy the time they might be working. A man can never get back the hours which be has lost. A man can never regain the days be was unemployed; his capital is being destroyed. There is another aspect ta it. How are we going to approach this problem of the worker in industry and the owner of industry? To- day, by and large, in corporate industry the owner is one who lends his money to indus- try. He can get that money back whenever he wants through the medium of the stock exchange. The owner lends his money, but the worker gives his life. Who then has the greater claim, morally or any other way, on the proceeds of industry? We in the C.C.F. say without question, the one who has the greater claim is the one who is doing the fundamental job of producing wealth. Yet we have not been able to sell that idea far enough, not only in this house but throughout Canada. The situation in the future is going to be aggravated. It is going to become much more acute than it has been in the past, and for this reason. There is a new word being coined. It is coming into the English lan- guage, and it is called automation. I do not like these new words, but I do not know what other substitute there could be for this situation in which machines are displacing men. This is not new in industrial history. There has been progress because machines displaced men, although it should be noted that the progress was always at the expense of one group in the community, that group which could not protect itself. Now, machines are displacing men at a rapidly accelerated rate. Automation is occurring far faster than was the case in the past. Let me give you one example, and there are many others which we could find if we were to look at industry. This is a situation which existed at the Chrysler plant in Detroit. There was an operation for the mak- ing of rocker arm supports, an operation JANUARY 13, 1955 which included drilling, reaming and cut- ting. Five men were employed on two machines in this particular phase of the opera- tion. These five men and two machines were able to produce 38 pieces an hour. Another machine has been brought in, s0 that one man and one machine can now manufacture 750 pieces an hour. In other words, a bank of the old machines could be rendered useless and 80 men could become unemployed because of this new piece of equipment and a social problem created. Today we have to find the answer. The situation is more serious in the United States just now than it is here, but it is going to visit us in Canada. We cannot avoid it because there has to be progress. We may perhaps have to consider carefully how rapidly we progress, and in what way. If automation becomes more prevalent than it is today, the unions are going to find them- selves in a position where seniority will count for nothing. The unions are going to find that job classification will go out the window because there will be no such thing in a mechanized society. Automation will certainly be here in our own lifetime. If this occurs the older worker, and by that I mean the man of 45 and over, is going to be unemployed. H-e is not going to be able to find work unless the fiscal policy of the government is such that, in some way or other, work is provided. There are, there- f ore, startling dangers ahead of us, and they are dangers because our political and eco- nomic thinking stili lags lamentably behind the technology of the age. This thinking has to be brought up to date. There may be an answer, perhaps, in the 'union request for a guaranteed annual wage. I eertainly support the idea. I have heard it argued, on the other hand, that the guaran- teed annual wage would be most unýfair to management because management would be com.pelled to keep workers on their staff when no work was available. I should like to see management acting as bird dogs for a change. I arn not altogether impressed with the quality or calibre of management in Canada. It is time they went out and did some rustling, not only to get orders but to make sure the men who are in the plants are being given employment. Furthermore, a guaranteed annual wage may at last bring home to industry the responsibility it has to society. It is regarded as right, proper and prudent for industry to create a depreciation -reserve for its fixed assets. Why is it not eq.ually proper, prudent and wise to create a depreciation reserve for the hun'ian assets who are producing the wealth in the various plants throughout Can- ada? It is starting. We see signs of it here The Address--Mr. A. Stewart and there, but flot in adequate quantities. Indlustry has to take a greater social re- sponsibillty for the men whom it employs. If the govei'nment, through its inju-rious fiscal policies, creates unemployment the gov- ernment representing society as a whole has to take responsibillty for that. There should be none of this nonsense of striking a man off unexnploymient benefits because he has been unemployed too long and there is still no work for him. I am n ot suggesting -the guaranteed annual wage is the ýcomplete anýswer because I do flot believe it is. I hope, however, the Department of Labour is considering this problem which is arising, and will meet with the unions and management in this country as soon as possible to try to devise some answer. There is one other matter about which I want to speak, and one about which every member of the house feels quite as strongly as I. I ar n ot quite certain yet about the members of the cabinet. I arn thinking about the plight of -the burnt-out veterans. 1 suppose other members had the samne experi- ence I had when I was home in that I was asked on a number of occasions to meet the Canadian Legion and say wha-t I thought of the situation. I may as well say here what I thought. 1 thought the government's con- duct was shoddy and shabby. I said it and I stili believe it. I arn prepared to withdraw those words when I see the new legislation introduced. I think the conduct of the Canadian people, also, may have been shoddy and shabby when we consider their responsibility, because these were men who volunteered to fight to keep the skins of the Canadian people intact. We were in danger, so we would pay any- thing for our safety. 0f course, once we became safe, we forgot about our moral obligation to those who had suffered for us. I hope the government is going to turn that moral obligation into hard dollars and cents when the new legislation comes down. Ail these people are -asking for is justice; they are not asking for too much because I have said in the past, and I say again, the briefs of the Canadian Legion have been exemplary in the sense that they have asked for what was fair and nothing more. Another thing: I hope this legislation will include some provision whereby the burnt-out pensioner is not, in effect, denied the old age pension when he achieves the age of 70. It can be said he is flot denied the old age pension, he gets it. He has a right to it, certainly, but his pension is cut down by the amount he gets and his total income is not one iota greater afterwards than before. While technically he gets the old age pension, in 160 HOUSE 0F COMMONS The Address-Mr. Garland effect hie sees nothing of it. 1 hope the gov- the lending facilities of our chartered banks erniment xviii fot be s0 miserable as ta keep available for home construction. I have that regulation in force. always taken a keen interest in housing. I should like ta read a letter which I re- Beiiig a firmn believer in the advantages of ceived. I have a great number of them, and home ownership, I was naturally rnterested I picked this one at random out of the file. ini this new legisia-tion. It expresses very adequately what these oid In our last session I was surprised and dis- veterans feel. It is fromn 769 Atlantic avenue, appointed with the opposition in some quar- Winnipeg, and reads: ters to this move. Some rather prominent Sir, members of the opposition expressed their The veterans are making a most justifiable appeal doubis as to the advisability of having our to the government of canada, to seriously consider banks participate in this field, and I seemn to their appeal for an increase in their allowance and recali the hon. member for Broadview (Mr. I arn asking you being our member of parliament to give it your full support and consideration. Hees) in particular advising the nation that Canada's banks would not be able ta pro- I most assuredly do. vide funds for home construction and at the The arnount received is flot sufficient for our sm iepromterrglrfntos expenses, having to meet the increased coats on aU aetm efr herrglrfntos aides. Also hospitals and doctors if our wives are How wrong hie was! ill, more or less as the case maY be, making a An examination of the financial statements serlous demand on the allowance. It ia very rea- of Canada's banks, and recent figures from sonable that a married man receiving a veteran's allowance should be able to bring his income to Centrai Mortgage and Housing Corporation, $2,000 per year. reveal that the banks have made boans in That is a most reasonable request. This this new field amounting to some $170 netsentence is one which has a sting in it million. This is a remarkable performance nextl f s when one remembers that the legisiation Thi isnotto muh t ak o a ovrnmnt howas only in effect for a few months of the now pensions its M.P.'s at $3.000 per year. bns iclya;ad hti oeipr The government of Canada recognizes that an tant, more housing units were completed in income of $2.000 per year is too low for a married the year just ended than ever before in aur man to psy income tax. itr.NwCndas ilweom th I therefore feel that this figure is the lowest itr.NwCndaswl ecm h reasonable figure to ask as an income for the reference in the throne speech indicating the veteran who is no longer able to perform steady government's intention to bring into opera- employment. tion, at the beginning of February, ýthose pro- Your support in this matter is solicited with deep visions of the National Housing Act in xvhich sincerity. Anything you can do to bring the gov- ernment recognition of its responsibility to the class loans may be made for home improvements. of veterans affected will bring you the thanks and It is evident to most that this proposed legis- appreciation of all veterans. lation will substantially improve housing I would be very happy to see this apprecia- conditions in this country. tion transferred to the shoulders of the gov- Mr. Speaker, there is another matter of ernment; and it can be easily transferred by national importance and of special interest bringing in the sort of legisiation which has to the people I represent and to northern been asked for by veterans and which has Ontario generally, and that is the trans- been asked for by members on all sides of the Canada highway. A survey of the progress house. And if the government is prepared to of this important project in northern Ontario do it, then I for one, and for a very brief is not impressive. I recognize the magnitude time, am prepared to forgive the government of this developmen-t and can understand the for some of its obvious inadequacies. pressures and needs fromn the more densely populated areas of southern Ontario for a Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing): Mr. Speaker, larger share of the highway dollar. I also rising to participate in this debate, may I recognize the difficulties the Ontario govern- forgo the usual custom of long and flowery ment has been having with their highways congratulations to the mover (Mr. Leduc) departmnent, and I do hope that now, since and the seconder (Mr. Carrick). May I say the premier of our province has apparently simply to them and to the other new miera- found it necessary to intervene personally bers introduced on Friday last that it is in this department, we can properly expect gratifying ta know that the membership of more emphasis on construction in northern this House of Commons, with its unrivalled Ontario. Our people expect and need this opportunity for service, continues to attractfiepoctomledasonspsib. Canadians of ability and integrity.fiepoctomleda on spsib. Before dealing directly with the speech The continued development of northern from the throne I would like to comment on Ontario is dependent on this road. ane piece of government business at our last The further expansion of aur tourist in- session. I refer ta legisiation that made dustry, the opening up of new areas giving [Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North).] JANUARY 10, 1955 transportation facilities ta, new rnining and lumbering developrnents bath present and future, point up the need for the early cam- pletion of the trans-Canada highway through northern Ontario. May I rernind the house that the agreernents with the provinces were signed back inx April, 1950, and are due ta expire Decernber 9, 1956. Titis leaves less than two years, and it is rny sincere wish that every possible priarity be given this important project by the governrnent of Ontario and, indeed, all the provinces. After ail, the federal treasury is paying 50 per cent of the casts, and the Canadian people expect action. If the necessary ca-operation is not irnmediately forthcorning, I would sug- gest the federal gaverrnent taking a firmer attitude with the provinces. Another matter o! cancern is the early construction o! a natural gas pipe lime through northern Ontario. We are pleased ta learn from the press recently that Trans- Canada Pipe Lines Lirnited now plan a more northern route ta serve northern municipali- ties, with a spur lime fram North Bay ta other important narthern Ontario centres. Anything this house does ta expedite this matter will be appreciated by northern Ontario. There is another subi ect, Mr. Speaker, of direct concern ta the people of Nipissing, that needs the attention of our Departrnent of Public Works, and I take advantage 0f the apportunity afforded members in this debate ta discuss local matters. I refer naw ta the dacking facilities at North Bay and Sturgeon Falls. I amrnmot gaing ta remind this house that the district of Nipissing is truly a tourists' paradise-this is already well known. I need scarcely rernd hon. rnerbers o! the excellent facilities throughout aur district. The Ontario Northland Boat Lines operate an excellent boat, the Chief. Com- manda, daily during the navigation season, frorn the North Bay wharf. The rapid expan- sion of the tourist industry in Nipissing is causing an ever-increasing flow of traffic over the present facilities. Irnportant rning activities on the islands o! lake Nipissing have further imcreased the flow of traffic. I have been successful in hav- ing repairs o! a temporary nature done ta bath docks, and appreciate the co-aperatian received fram the departrnent. However, the tirne has carne for extensive repairs ta make sure that these important facilities are ade- quate for presemt-day traffic requirernents. It is not rny intention ta deal with many o! the subi ects contained in the speech !rorn the throne. Most Canadians will approve the prapased amendments ta the Unemployment Insurance Act imrnediately ta assist aur citi- zens who, thraugh fia !ault of their awm, may 50433-11 The Addressa-Mr. Garland be unemployed this winter. And I arn pleased this legisiation is now under way. Canadians generally will a-pprove the governrnent's in- tention ta amend the War Veterans Allawance Act, ta raise the basic rates as well as the ceiling on permissible incarnes of allowance recipients. There will be general approval of the gov- ernrnent's proposai ta lower the age of eligi- bility and raise the incarne ceilings of Canada's blind citizens. Canadians will naw have the right ta expect humanitarian treat- ment for her disabled citizens. Taa long, now, has this been a dark chapter in aur prograrn of social welfare. Located as we are in Nipissing, s0 close ta the gold rnining country, and dependent on it for a substantial share of aur ecanarnic well- being, we are anticipating cantinued support ta that important industry through the Ernergency Gold Mining Assistance Act. Further, I arn sure ail those interested in municipal affairs will await with keen inter- est the proposed arnendments ta the Municipal Grants Act. I ar n ot; unmindful af Canada's activities and aur respansibilities abroad in the fields of diplomacy, ca-aperative defence and assist- ance ta underprivileged areas, plus a genu- mne desire and need further ta promate freer warld trade. Our gaverfnment is keenly aware of these trernendously important prablerns and I can see na useful purpase in rny dis- cussing thern at titis tirne. During the next several days we will un- doubtedly hear much criticism 0f the speech frorn the throne, and that is as it should be in a dernocracy. Our socialist friends will argue that the benefits forecast in the speech are thoroughly inadequate. They will undoubtedly urge the launching a! a huge prograrn o! pub- lic warks, as though the benefits carne auto- rnatically with the spending of public rnaney. This seerns ta be the socialists' chief answer ta current unernplayrnent. Our Progressive Conservative friends, on the other hand, will, as usual, talk about what it does not contain, and will no doubt take the position that spending o! the kind recorn- mended by the socialists will not; correct the ernployment situation, and will anly add ta the already high prices of goods and services which the Progressive Canservatives dlaim. is the real probler n x the Canadian ecanarny. Sir, as a "middle of the roader", if such an expression is pernissible, I suggest the answer, as is s0 often the case, lies sorne- where between these two points o! view. The spending o! public rnaney an weil-planned and urgently needed public prajects and services is necessary, and can rnake an Imnportant HOUSE 0F COMMONS The Address-Mr. Garland contribution to our economy. But I sug- gest that this parliament approach our prob- lems at this time caimiy and confidently. Let us flot be pushed into hastily conceived schemes. May I suggest that while this is flot a timne for compiacency, neither is there any justification for gloom-peddling or any artificial pump-priming of our economy, or speciai preferred attention to a selected few. In my opinion, our economy withstood the shocks of 1954 in surprisingiy good fashion. The market for our staple wheat exports suffered a real siump. The United States experienced a sizeable recession that quite naturaliy took the edge off our pros- perity here. There was a poor wheat crop in the west. These 'unfavourable circum- stances were quite beyond the control of Canadians, yet we find new investment con- tinuing at a high level. Our exports were reduced oniy by about the equivalent of the drop in wheat sales. Our other exports were just about maintained. In spite of the normal difficulties of Canadian exporters, a more favourable balance between exports and imports was achieved in 1954 than in 1953. This resuit, in my opinion, mnakes non- sense of ail the clamour we hear that high Canadian costs are pricing us out of worid markets. Perhaps "makes nonsense" is rather strong language. Perhaps I shouid say that it punches plenty of hoies in the sweeping charge that high Canadian costs are pricing us out of world markets. Let us remember that costs are oniy one factor that go into a sale. Let us remember that there are others. There is the question of availability. There is the question of quality and the question of aggressive sales approach. In the case of appliances and machînery there is the question of a good service organiza- tion behind an aggressive sales organization. I arn not suggesting that these factors do not exîst, but one should not accept the generai statement that high costs are our only problemn in trade. Let us not forget that aiso in the late 1940's and the early 1950's we enjoyed markets that had neyer been tra- ditionaliy ours, and it is only natural that since these countries have corne back fromn the devastation of war they are going to be able to supply the products that they normally supplied. While we shahl lose some markets, it is true, we are going to gain others and this is particularly true of our forest products in many countries of Europe. It is particularly true of base metals in many countries in Europe. I believe there are figures showing that the exports of these two commodities I have mentioned have in- creased in some months during the past year [Mr. Garland.] to as high as 30 per cent or 35 per cent over the corresponding months of 1953. Let us look for just a moment at the future. This Liberal government should seek to improve the already excellent relationship between business and government in Canada, and sbouid continue to offer every possible incentive to new and existing business, as it is oniy through steady expansion of our free enterprise systemn that we can continue ta improve the living standards of our people. At the samne time, we must recognîze that at this haifway mark in the century we have reached the stage of development where those that have must share a part of their good fortune with those less fortunate, s0 ihat ail of us may have more of the good things of life. I suggest we have reached this stage in our international thinking as well as at home. Such a policy is reasonable and right, and is bound to find favour with free, fair- minded people everywhere. Such a policy I will continue to support in the firma belief that Canada can move forward to an even brighter future. This poiicy of freedom for business, and social security for our people, has been in- consistent with Tory and socialist thinking alike, down through the years. To them, such a policy of co-existence could only be tolerated in cases of extreme emergency. To me, this combination of f ree enterprise and social veif are is the very cornerstone of the Liberal approach, and that is why the Liberal party continues to enjoy the confi- dence of fairminded Canadians everywhere. At six o'clock the house took recess. AFTER RECESS The house resumed at eight o'clock. THE ROYAL ASSENT Mr. Speaker: I have the honour to inform the house that I have received the following communication: Ottawa, January 13, 1955 Sir: I have the honour to, Informa you that the Hon- ourable Patrick Kerwin, Chief Justice of Canada. acting as Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General, will proceed to the Senate chamber today. the 13th January, at 9.45 p.m., for the purpose of giving the royal assent ta a certain bill. I have the honour to be. sir, Your obedient servant. J. F. Delaute. Secretary to the Governor General (Administrative) JANUARY 13. 1955 SPEECH FROM THE THRONE CONTINUATION 0F DEBATE ON ADDRESS IN REPLY . The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Yves Leduc (Verdun) for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Rowe, and the amendment to the amend- ment of Mr. Coldwell. Mr. J. W. Murphy (Lamblon West): Mr. Speaker, in spite of ail its care!ully chosen words and limited demands, the speech from the throne could hardly be expected to sup- press the fact that there is mounting unem- ployment at the present time in Canada. This is an ugly fact that stares us nîl in the face. It is a condition o! our national economy that in my judgment will flot be remedied by the building of ferries, the construction of an odd harbour, the removal of Ripple Rock, the building o! historic sites and monuments and the like. I think it is high time that we as members of parliament addressed ourselves seriously to the problemns facing Canada with respect to production and trade. As that is going to be a most important subject during this partic- ular session, I would like to go back and review a littie bit o! hîstorical background relative to trade and tariffs. The year 1914 closed an era. One world then died and another is stîll struggling to be born. That old world was dominated by one great country that had coal, limestone, ore and other basic resources close to the sea- board, and these provîded the sound basis for an industrial economy which spread itself throughout the agricultural and raw material areas o! the world. The central fact about Britain's industrial economy was that she was first in the field and thus able to develop a tremendous lead over ail possible rivals. In fact until the very latter part of the nineteenth century she had no industrial rivals at nîl. The British made money, therefore, by buying raw materials as cheaply as possible and selling against al comers in free markets, the countries to whom they were selling not having the facilities to manufacture industrial goods. Today the industrial centres o! production cannot be counted on the fingers of one hand. Two-thirds of the population of the world still remains pensant and poor, but in the other third industrial development in most cases has changed and is changing the social pattern o! life, and has rescued and is rescuing nations from poverty in constantly widening areas. 50433- llA The Address-Mr. J. W. Murphy People ask the question: Why should we have agricultural surpluses when so many are in need of food? The simple answer is that these countries in need of food have flot yet been able to organize their resources and their political systems so as to be in a posi- tion to buy food. As you know, we do have the Colombo plan. It is a truism that predominantly agricul- tural nations are poor. It is almost now a platitude to say that it is research and the industrial improvements that follow that transform our agriculture, our forest and min- ing industries into enterprises that provide more profitable occupations. Industrial de- velopment keeps our economies in a constant state of peaceful revolutionary change, and thereby provides better working conditions and better real incomes for ail the individuala and familles of our population. Today we should have a searching look at our Canadian economy. That means we should glance backward and look forward. It is by looking at the wake of a ship that you can best discern the direction in which the ship is going. It is .by taking a look at Canada back to the time of confederation that we are able to see the course on which our national economy was set some 85 years ago. The first prime minister of Canada was Sir John A. Macdonald. Following confederation there was a brie! period of political consolida- tion, but in 1888 Sir John realized the lonely isolated economic position into which our economy was drifting. We had enjoyed very valuable preferences in agriculture and in shipping in the British market, to which our timber products at that time were making great contributions. But between 1846 and 1870 Britain had transformed herseif into a free nmarket economy and we were on the samne basis in that market as ail other coun- tries o! the world. The United States had fought the Civil War and thereby swung the southern states into the industrial orbit of the north. Reciprocity, which we had enjoyed with them, was abro- gated. We were on our own. We had no real chance to develop native industries because o! the much superior technological ahility to produce possessed by other coun- tries, especially the United States. Difficulties were on the horizon everywhere facing our producers o! farm. and other raw materials. In these circumstances Sir John A. Macdonald moved his now famous resolution in the House of Comxnons on March 12, 1878, on going into committee o! su'pply, and this I will read: This house is of the opinion that the welfare ofCanada requires the adoption of a national policy.which, by a judicious readjustmnent of the tarift, 164 HOUSE 0F COMMONS The Address-Mr. J. W. Murphyj will benefit and foster the agricultural. the mining, Laurier gavernment in 1896, maintained by the manufacturing. and other interests of the the Borden and Meighen governments from dominion; that such a policy wiIl retain in Canada thousands of our fellow countrymen who are iiw 1911 to 1922, was stili gaod enough ta survive obliged to expatriate themselves in search of the the verbal anslaught af the Liberal leader. employment denied themn at home-, wii restare who was prime minister Of this country for prosperity to our struggling industries, flow Sa aver 20 years. Sa the Macdonald palicy, in sadly depressed; wII prevent Canada from belng dvlpn nuty eaeadrmie made a sacrifice market; wilI encourage and eloigndsrban ndemnd deveiop an active interprovincial trade; and mov- the carnerstane af Canadian ecanamic palicy. ing (as it ought to do) in the direction of a Up until the war of 1914 the develapment reciprocity of tariffs with aur neighbours. so far as the varied interests of Canada may demand, of industries and -courageaus immigration will greatly tend to procure for this country, even- policies in aur cauntry and others maintained a tually, a reciprocity of trade. healthy demand for primary praducts, and Nate the last part of the resalutian, which an especially whalesome demand for f arm may appear taday ta have been brave words products. There were no difficulties in at the time. Sir John's resalution clearly finding markets for farmn praducts up until implied we cannat have reciprocity with the a year or twa follawing world war I. But, United States until we set aur own hause in of caurse, inevitably the war geared agricul- order; until we got into the habit of pro- tural production ta a paint that could flot be cessing aur own industrial and raw materials, sustained in the face of the shrinking and until in time we will be ýable ta meet demand for agricultural praducts that follow- the United States on some reasonable ground ed the war. of nearly equal competitive terms. The United States took swif t action ta Thus we had, particularly in these twa protect its agricultural industry. In the early cenra prvicesofOntri an Qebe, hetwenties we had the Fordney-McCumber begnniapovic o f hntariow ast iusctie tarif! which disastrously cut the volume of teinno hat anc peea e nerl eqal termstrieh aur farmn and flsh exports. A post-war tay othe counetr n hel world eMs wtho depression in those days seemed ta be taken for granted andtr in the middle twestief aur long-established industries can produce ftr gantd indin shedwidand twempor- goads, pay salaries almost as high as any- feanidsrlshkow adtmp- where else-I think as high as anywhere else ary unemployment, Britain returned ta the with the possible exception of the United gold standard and the industrial process was States-and put aur goods on the world again in healthy and rampant stride. markets just as efflciently as other industrial For reasons I do flot wish ta go into naw countries. at length this world economy which was The Conservatives were called upon ta promising so much, particularly ta those qui in186 ad te ibeal, uderth gratoptimists who were investing in the stock Sir Wilfrid Laurier, took over until the mre-n ee' ealclasdi year 1911. The Liberal party came into 1929. The United States congress again power on a trade platfarm which threatened cted promptl3'. They enacted the Hawley- ta sweep away protection in Canada by Smoot tarif! which all but obliterated what pramising ta, restore free trade on the model remained of our farm export market. They of industrial Britain. But when they came followed this in 1932 with a special revenue inta power they became realists. It is true act putting specific tarif! duties against such that they gave a voluntary preference ta metals as copper and such ather primary Britain, but Britain was nat the great praducts as lumber. industrial. threat to aur native industry. It Mr. R. B. Bennett was then prime minister was the United States. At ahl events the of Canada and, in different and even mare national policy of Sir John A. Macdonald was difficult circumstances, he faced the same sa well safeguarded by the Liberals in power problemn as Sir John A. Macdonald. that the tarif! structure which they left Canada was refused entry into the United behind them in 1911 remnained unchanged States of her agricultural surpluses and her thraugh the administrations of Borden and metals and lumber, and Britain, with the Meighen. There were same special war exception of same 100 special and nat very duties, but they were repealed as soan as the high duties imposed during the war and post- war ended. war periad, was aperating on a free trade If you compare the actual tarif! exactions basis. levid drin th Larie reimeandthe Mr. Bennett invited the nations o! the levid drin th Larie reimeandthecommonwealth and empire ta a conference in later regimes af Borden and Meighen, yau Ottawa. In the meantime Britain was farced will find that taken as percentage totals o! ail off the gold standard and reverted ta a sub- imports they vary by less than a fraction of stantial tarif! structure ranging an industrial one per cent, and generally speaking the products from 10 ta 33 and in same cases up same tarif! which was accepted by the ta 50 per cent. [1fr. Murphy (Lamnbton West).] JANUARY 13, 1955 Most of the discussion about the empire agreements at that time centred on the secure and sheltered market we were guaranteed for portions of our agricultural products in Britain, but, as I see it now, the great gain that flowed from these agreements was the stimulus it gave to Canadian manufacturing industries. As I pointed out, the British tariff on manufactured goods ranged from 10 to 33 and even up to 50 per cent, and as a result of the empire agreements our manufactured products were admitted into that country free. What did this mean? It meant that United States industry selling to Britain would have to pay these rates I have just mentioned, whereas, if they moved their plants into Canada, or established branches in Canada, the products of these plants entered Britain mainly free of duty. You can go through Ontario or elsewhere in Canada today and you will see industry after industry which obtained a footing in this way and as a result of this development are now flourishing and supplying markets at home and abroad. What we should ail try to escape from is the state of academic anaemia in which our discussions on trade policy are conducted. In face of the record I have mentioned, what is the use of discussing free trade as a practical political proposition? All such discussion does not alter the fact that there is no genuine free trade party in Canada and there never was. Since we have a tariff for protection, why not be fair and reasonable about its applica- tion? Why should industries which have entered Canada at the request of the govern- ment to supply vitally needed war materials, and which now employ many thousands of Canadian workers at the best prevailing rates of pay, be made the victims of hypo- critical trade philosophy? That is the trouble about this double-talk regarding protection for industry. The industries which can exert effective political pressure on the government are able to break through the sound barrier erected by the alleged free traders. Indus- tries that are anxious to get on with their business and take fair and equitable treat- ment for granted are sacrificed on the altar set up by the academic free traders. Because of our recent discoveries in natural resources, including gas and oil, we are in the process of developing a huge chemical em- pire in this country. This chemical industry has already been highly developed in the United States. Some products of these and other industries are admitted into Canada free from the United States, and similar The Address-Mr. J. W. Murphy products going from Canada to the United States are subjected to substantial customs tariff rates. When a given product is produced both in Canada and in the United States, and the government across the border levies customs duties and other imposts much in excess of ours, such a situation should become a matter for -adjustment between the two countries. Canada's exports are fettered by foreign tariff regulations while, on the other hand, Canadian industry is exposed to damaging competition. After the war we had visions of drawing all the nations of the world into various forms of collective action which were to be the sure road to a political world paradise. All nations banded together were to be as happy and peaceful as a basket of kittens. We now know that some of the kittens turned out to have long claws. Let us not despair in the task of finding real avenues to a restored world order. But let us work with practical means towards practical ends. We are standing by the gen- eral agreement on tariffs and trade, while others are not. Our dairy products are sub- ject to quota and our coarse grain products are either placed under quota or subjected to voluntary quota agreements. Devices are found within the terms of the agreements to protect domestic manufacturers. We take no advantage of such, while others do. The ideological struggle between commu- nism and democracy has Ied to the popular use of the expression "co-existence". In my opinion Canada should seek a revision of the Geneva trade agreement on the basis of Canadian industrial co-existence. By that I mean that out of an appreciation of a definite national purpose we should look to the re- casting of our trade agreements to the degree that Canadian industry is allowed the right to live, even as our trading partners will seek the same right for their industries. This, in essence, is what I mean by co- existence: the safeguarding and successful existence of Canadian industries which must, of necessity, compete w.ith foreign industries which perhaps have advantages of labour, wage rates, and many other considerations. We cannot pursue an inflexible policy which stifles industry and denies labour an opportunity of steady employment. Foreign exporters to Canada and Canadian industries cannot expect to sell much to unemployed Canadians. Our domestic producers pay an excise tax of up to 15 per cent, and on top of that a further sales tax of 10 per cent. The Cana- dian manufacturer of automobiles pays excise and sales taxes totalling 25 per cent, against 166 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. J. W. Murphy the manufacturers across the line who pay The United States is now concerned about an excise tax of 7 per cent. It is no wonder the problem of assuring itself of an adequate automobiles are cheaper in the United States. supply of key materials, especially minerais, We have an unemployment problem that and these at the lowest possible cost con- will not be cured by public works or by sub- sistent with security factors. scribing to some bogus theory of free trade. Many of their needed produets are pro- It will be solved by giving good sound indus- duced in abundance in Canada. The United trial enterprises a chance to compete on fair States more and more will become dependent terms with industries abroad. In other words, on our imports of copper, lead, zinc, and iron an opportunity of co-existence. ore. We, in the meantime, are dependent on A policy which levies excessive taxation on them for coal and for citrus fruits. The coal industry prices its products out of the market, problem is somewbat mitigated by the adds new burdens to the cost of living, causes development of our oh and gas resources. unemployment in Canada, and is obviously We need their cotton. But in this day of not good enough. substitution, we do not know how long that Japan and Germany are rising out of the need, based on United States production, ashes of defeat. Their standards of pay are will last. One certain thing is that we were not such as our workers will accept, and we selling tbem large quantities of iron ore and do not want them to accept such standards. we were buying from them large quantities India looms across the horizon. What we of steel in the form of ingots and finished need urgently now is a reappraisal of our goods. They will continue to rely on us national policy which has been accepted by for supplies of nickel, asbestos and tin. all political faiths. Canada bas the materials the United States The general agreement on tariffs and needs. Canada bas the basic materials, alum- trade is now up for revision. We are now inum, iron ore, uranium, pulp, paper and in a position to make a reappraisal of its lumber. benefits and disadvantages to Canada. Our location gives us a major advantage Formerly we got on pretty well by making in competing with the United States, and agreements with individual nations. In each from a security point of view we are con- case the effects of the agreements could be sidered their best source of supply. We enjoy fairly forecast by the interested parties, by their confidence. Their investments in Canada our trade experts, and by those who speak ave been richly rewarded over the years. for the consumers at large. Witb the United States, and more partic- Admittedly, GATT, which represents a ularly with our sister nations of the com- general trade device that ties us all to a monwealth, and in co-operation with the free theory that does not always work out i nations of the world today, we must seek to practice, presents vastly new problems for re-establisb orderly trade. Nationalism is stîli our experts who advise the government in the most potent force in tbe world and what such matters. we must do is seek the great objectives of Many members of the house were dis- world security on the basis of enligbtened turbed by the statement made by the Minis- self-interest. We shaîl not be true to the ter of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) after trust that is ours if we do not continue to his return from Geneva. He seemed to think process greater percentages of our base that the end of the world had come, in so metals in Canada. We cannot befcontent far as international trade on a broad scale be ewers f wood and drawers water. is concerned. We can do as others do-and wbat is todaythe accepted basis of trade-namely, appraise Let me say at once that we believe that our strength as a trader and obtain markets the most earnest efforts should be made by for these surpluses-especially in agricultural this government to maintain the general products-whicb we cannot use, and admit structure of tariffs and trade agreements that articles on a basis that does not destroy our were worked out in the first instance at standards of wage paymentsand ourstandard Geneva, and which are now generally known as GATT. We, like most other signatories to of living. this agreement, have two objects in mind. Finally, let me say tbis. We shah be false We want reasonably legitimate competitive to our trust, and false to the best interests of safeguards for industries that are established Canada, if we continue to invite useful indus- in this country, and for industries, although tries into Canada and then, for no good prac- now in their initial stages of development, tical reason, bave tbem slaughtered on the that give real promise of becoming the means for profitable employment in this country. And we want markets for our surplus If the dour predictions of the Minister of products. Trade and Commerce prove to be correct, we [Mr. Murphy sLambton West).f JANUARY 13. 1955 will be on the verge of a jungle war in inter- national trade, and the people of this country will expect the government to work out plans with the commonwealth, with the United States, and with as many of the free nations of the world as possible to regain our lost markets for our surplus products in this country. Mr. Claude Ellis (Regina City): Mr. Speaker, there are a few comments that I should like to make at this time because I feel that this debate should play an extremely valuable role since it provides members on all sides of the house with an opportunity of turning the spotlight on what they consider to be the most important issues in their respective con- stituencies. After having read carefully the speech from the throne, I fail to see where the government has given consideration to what I believe to be the most pressing problems facing the Canadian people at the present time. The government apparently has chosen to ignore the basic economic problems and is hoping that, by giving a few pieces of worth- while legislation of a minor character-that is in terms of the whole economic picture- the people of the country will be satisfied. I suggest that in the government's approach to its legislative program this year they have given us no reason to believe that they are going to make any frontal attack on the most important problems which we face at the present time. I feel a debate of this kind gives members an opportunity of expressing something of their basic philosophy and of their over-all approach to the problems of the government. One or two other members who have spoken in this debate have referred in a brief manner to this important aspect, namely the whole attitude of the government towards the legis- lation and its whole attitude towards the role of government in society. There are in this country those who believe that the activities of the government should be restricted to an extremely narrow sphere. There are those who believe that the less the government has to do, in so far as the economy is concerned, the better off the Canadian people are. I find it difficult to understand why those who champion the cause of free enterprise deem it necessary to support such things as the anti-combines legislation and all sorts of government legislation which was placed on the statute books for the particular purpose of defending the people of Canada against the big business interests of this country. Indeed, if the champions of free enterprise were to follow their own belief to a logical conclusion, then I am sure that The Address-Mr. Elis the people of this country would find them- selves in a much more serious position than that in which they find themselves today. Indeed in a democratic society the people have a right to look to the government not only for protection against economic interests over which they have little or no control, but also to give them some direction, some leader- ship, in the solution of economic problems. This concept of government is not new. Abraham Lincoln once described the govern- ment's role to be one of doing for the people what they were unable to do for themselves. As time goes on and our society becomes more complex, I believe the need for the continued attention of the government is self- evident. If you were to ask a man who is unemployed today, and who has done his level best to find employment, what he thinks of that concept of government, I am quite certain he would say, "I have done all I can for myself and must look to the government for some help to obtain employment". I think that is the logical and sensible way of view- ing the activities of government today. Now, we in this movement believe that in a democratic society the government which represents the people has a duty and responsi- bility to care for the interests of the people as a whole. The other day some hon. mem- bers referred to the credit union movement. I as a member of the co-operative movement, and as a member for some years of a credit union, wholeheartedly agree. There is a case where people, realizing that in our vicious economic system it is necessary to band to- gether for mutual self-protection, are doing just that in a limited manner. What we in this movement argue is that the same prin- ciple applies to the economic machinery of this country as a whole. What we want in democratic society is a greater measure of democratic control of the economy. There is planning in this country. Hon. members talk about the dangers of planning. It would be impossible to carry on a modern government without a great degree of plan- ning. Our whole economic machinery in this country is planning. The big question is not whether or not we are going to have planning; the question is who is going to do the planning and on whose behalf. We argue that what- ever planning is done should be done in the interests of the people of this country, not planning by corporations designed to enhance the fortunes of this or that particular group of companies. We know that in this complex society in which we live there has to be planning. We in this movement insist it should be democratic planning by a demo- cratic government in the interests of all the people of the country. 168 HOUSE OF The Address-Mr. Ellis Earlier I mentioned that in my opinion the governrment has completely ignored the basic economic difficulties facing the people of this country. I want to refer to just two or three signs of that unwillingness to face up to reality. Coming as I do from a constituency which depends entirely on the prosperity of the surrounding agricultural area, I am very much alarmed by the falling off of our ex- ternal trade and the serious decline in net farm income. I cannot view with anything but seriousness the fact that in the past year our exports of Canadian wheat and other coarse grains has declined by some 40 per cent. When you translate that fact into its broader implications throughout Canada it is easy to understand why there have been wide- spread lay-offs in the farm machinery indus- try, why industrial activity is down, and why we find many industrial workers unemployed. In addition to the falling off of agricultural exports we know that for the first ten months of last year there was a decline in the value of merchandise exports by approximately 8 per cent. These are signs which the govern- ment ought to take into consideration. The government should realize they are danger signs which must be faced if we are to avert an even more serious economic condition in this country. I can recall attending political meetings in my own province where the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) and Liberal spokesmen have answered the ques- tion of the lost British markets by saying, "Look at our trade position; we are doing wonderfully well." They completely ignored the fact that our trade position was based on the fact we were exporting agricultural com- modities to the United States. Anyone who wanted to view the situation objectively would know that the United States has never been, and will never be, a dependable market for farm produ.cts. I believe it was the editor of the Montreal Star who last week, speaking over the air, described the United States market as sore- thing like a water tap. If the United States producers were not able to meet the re- quirements of the domestic market and ex- port trade, the government would turn on the tap and allow our Canadian products to enter the United States. But just as soon as the United States production was sufficient to meet the domestic requirements of that country 'and ·to take care of their export requirements, then of course the government would turn off the tap. Anyone who wanted to use a little bit of foresight and plain common sense could have seen that develop- ment coming. Apparently ·this government, when it lost the British market, said, "Look, we have [Mr. EDlis.] COMMONS given you markets in the United States." They must have knowin we could not hope to keep those markets indefinitely. This is not without its serious effects on the economy of this country. With respect to the falling net farm income we find that 1954 was the third successive year in which there has been a substantial drop in net farm income. During that period net farm income dropped from $2,115 million to $1,200 million, a drop of some 44 per cent. One cannot stress too strongly the seriousness of this disastrous drop in income, because the farmer plays a unique role in our economy. The farmer is not merely a producer of con- sumer goods, he is also the owner and operator of a relatively highly capitalized small business. In that dual role he is purchasing farm machinery and other capital goods. No survey has been made in this country to reveal the extent to which that is carried on, but research surveys have been made in the United States which indicate that the average farmer will purchase 2-4 times as much per capita as the consumer in the city. Thus we find this disastrous drop in net farm income has a very serious effect on em- ployment in the industrial areas of Canada. One cannot stress too strongly the interde- pendence of those who work the soil and those who work in our factories, offices and other places of employment. This brings me to the third aspect, and one with which I should like to deal in a little more detail, the question of unemploy- ment in Canada. One of the most discourag- ing features of the speech from the throne is the refusal to face up to the unemployment problem as it exists. The government tries to create the impression that unemployment does not exist in Canada. When they are placed in the position of having to defend themselves they say there is a little unem- ployment but it is only seasonal or only regional. They will try to pass it off as being of little consequence. Perhaps as supporters of the free enterprise system they believe a little unemployment is inevitable. Perhaps they take the attitude of some businessmen that not only is a certain percentage of unemployment inevitable under our system but that it is desirable. I do not know whether that is the thinking of the members of the government, but at any rate they do not seem to pay very much attention to the fact that some 500,000 or more-this year likely closer to 600,000-Canadians will be out of work. The government does not consider that serious enough. Just how serious does the unemployment situation have to become JANUARY 13, 1955 before the government recognizes it exists? Are they going to wait until there are 800,000 unemployed, one million unemployed or 1-5 million? Just where are they going to draw the line between concern and lack of concern? They have argued that unem- ployment is regional, that it is seasonal. We know that according to the national employ- ment service last winter there were some 569,000 Canadians out of work. Last fall the Canadian Congress of Labour estimated that this winter there would be in excess of 600,000 persons in Canada out of employ- ment. Yet the government feels that this is not serîous enough to give dloser atten- tion to in its legislatîve program this year. We know that this unemployment is not concentrated in any one particular area, because we find unemployment in all parts of Canada. 1 have talked to members of the House of Commons from ail parts of the country and 1 have heard the same story- "Unemployment is bad in my city";, 'IUnemployment is bad in our part of the country." I say that some of the members on the government side of the house who get up and pat the government on the back ought to ask themselves the question as to how serious unemployment is in their own community. I would like to know how many governxnent supporters are prepared to get up and say that there is no unemployment in their con- stituencies. I doubt if one of them can get up in this House of Commons and say that the unemployment -situation is not serious in his area. I would welcome the assurance to the house by the government supporters on this unemployment question, but we do know this, that we have the facts regarding unemploy- ment. We know that unemployment has in- creased in the following industries: non-f er- rous metal products, mining, shipbuîlding, machinery, aircraf t and parts, sawmills, con- struction, logging, clothing, railroad equip- ment, automobiles and parts, iron and steel, textiles and farm machinery. These are the basic industries of this country-particularly the steel industry. As 1 say, these are the basic industries of Canada. There is mounting unemployment in these industries; yet the governmen-t feels that it is not important enough to make a frontal attack on the problem. With respect to the farm. machinery industry, which is a striking example, there has been such a fal in net farmi income that the farmers cannot buy new machinery. The result is that we find widespread unemployment in the farm machir;ery industry. We know that since 50433-12 The Address-Mr. Ellis 1952 there has been a reduction in farmn machinery production to the extent of some 34 per cent. Once again, the attitude of the government seems difficuit to understand-ths willing- ness on their part to ignore the seriousness of unemployment in this country. And with respect -to the argument that unemployment is regional, as I have already pointed out, if anyone will make a survey of the country he will find unemployment right across Canada. Just look at the records -of the employment offices and they will indicate that unemploy- ment is widespread from one part of Canada to the other. And then, in connection with seasonal employment: of course we have always had seasonal employment in this country. And yet it is only in the last couple of years that we have had such great numbers of unem- ployed as we now have in the winter months. Then, of course, just because a man gets a few months' work in the summer months is not an answer to the employment problem. I am sure that those men who are looking for employment want year-round employ- ment. They want some measure of job security with decent working conditions and good wages. The government cannot take satisfaction from -the fact that the unemploy- ment figures might be a littie higher in the winter than they are in the summer. What we want is employment ail the year round; and in those areas where such employment is not available there should be other employment made available so that those who are doing seasonal work can take on other work in the off-season. These are questions to which the goverli- ment must give serious consîderation. Then, with regard to the government's attitude con- cerning unemployment, I wonder why they refuse to admit the seriousness of the prob- lem. I suggest the reason the government is flot willing to face up to the unemploy- ment problem is the simple fact that they have no plan or no solution for the problem; and they hope that by ignoring it they can muddle through, and that something will come along to pull them out of the economic swamp in which they find themselves at the present time. Now, with respect to the officiai opposition, it was qui-te interesting last Monday to hear the speech of the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) -and to remember that he alone, among the present members of his party in the House of Commons, was a cabinet minister in the government of the late R. B. Bennett. I do not think our memories are so short that we cannot cast 170 HOUSE 0F COMMONS The Address-Mr. Ellis our minds back over that period, during inevitable depression, the evil hour was put which. time we had a Conservative govern- off. This was done first of ail by the repair- ment in this country. I believe the late Mr. ing of the ravages of war, indirectly by ex- Bennett went out to seek election and in a ports in connection with the Marshall plan, public meeting in Regina promised to end and so on, and then later through the de- unemployment in 60 days, I believe it velopment of the cold war followed. by the was, or 90 days-somne such time, any- great rearmament program, and then Korea. way. Ail of these were artificial stimulants to the economy which managed to maintain a An hon. Member: Ninety days. relatively high level of employment in this Mr. Ellis: Ninety days, was it? Well, he country. was going to end unemployment in ninety But now, in spite of ail that, in spite of days. the tremendous defence program, we are now An hon. Member: And he did. faced with the fact that we have over half a million unemployed in Canada. And the Mr. Ellis: Someone in the officiai oppýosi- government chooses to do nothing about it. tion says that Mr. Bennett did end unem- Now, with respect to the government's ployment in 90 days. Well, I do flot attitude toward the unemployed- know whether he thinks that the relief camps were a solution to the unemployment prob- An hon. Member: Take care of the Socreds lem of that time. But we do know that now. apparently that was the Conservative party's Mr. Ellis: Someone says to take care of the answer to unemployment: "Let us herd ýail Socreds. I have flot mentioned them because, the single unemployed into relief camps and by their own choice, they have aligned them- get them out of the way, into the bush selves with our friends across the chamber, country. Let us remove them from their and with our Progressive Conservative friends homes and put them in relief camps, ini to the right. They are the most vociferous enforced idleness." element of free enterprise, and consequently That was regimentation, if there ever was have completely removed any possibility of regimentation in this country. Hon. memnbers attaining, anything s0 far as reform is con- who talk about regimentation in society must cerned. know that we had the greatest regimentation I believe during the time that the late Mr. during the time of the relief camps under Bennett and the late Mr. Mackenzie King the government of the late R. B. Bennett. wr rsln ihteuepomn rb Then we had a change of government in lem in the thirties, in their own hearts they 1935 when the Liberais took office. Weil, desired to see the end of unemployment. But they muddled along in 1936, 1937 and 1938, they faiied because their parties were com- and nothing was doue about the unempioy- mitted to maintain the free enterprise system. ment probiem. It is true that they did away And because they were tied to that system with the relief camps, but in place of those they found themselves powerless to grapple relief camps the young men were hounded with the forces produced by it. about the country, driven from one city to I hear some interruptions to my right, Mr. another, kept one jump ahead of the vagrancy Speaker, but I have not been able to hear laws. Those who were fortunate enough to themn clearly. I wish I could, and I would get direct relief got 50 cents a day, out of nwr which they were supposed to house, feed andanwr clothe themselves-all on 50 cents a day I suggest the reason the government has relief. And that was the Liberal party' n~fot been able to grapple with the problemn to- answer to unemployment at that time. day is that they are committed to the defence o f the free enterprise system. We know that Then the war came along, and apparently the Prime Minister quite rightiy reminded the that granted a reprieve. The great develop- Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) ment in the industrial machinery of thîs that they too were committed to a defence of country iu connection with the prosecution the free enterprise system; and therefore of the war brought about a period for which offered no alternative. Concerning the eco- they now take credit, and describe as a nomic problems faced by the people o! this great period of prosperity. And then after country, the failure of the government to the war, when the leading economists, when delwt hmwud emthdb h the spokesmen for the chambers o! commerce failure of the officiai opposition to deal with and the various banks, along with members themn and the failure o! the Socreds to deal o! the C.C.F., predicted that when the war with them, because any party which commits ended and a transformation fromn a wartime itself to a defence o! free enterprise finds to a peacetime economy had taken place we itself unable to deal with the probiemns facing wouid be faced with a recession, and an the country at the present time. [Mr. Ells.] JANUARY 13, 1955 Sir William Beveridge, in a study of the post-war situation in Great Britain, came to roughly the same conclusion, that within the narrow framework of free enterprise no solu- tion was possible to our major economic difficulties. We in our group believe the health and the prosperity of the people of Canada to be more important than a slavish adherence to an outworn economic system. Because we believe that, we are in a position to offer policies that.will tackle and overcome the problems facing Canada at the present time. I realize it would be too much to expect the government to adopt our policies. That is too much to expect. I realize that after we have championed a cause for some con- siderable length of time and it grows in popularity with the Canadian people, when it reaches a certain stage then they are quite apt to reach out and embrace our program and our policies. We have even gone one step further. We have got to the stage where even the Conservatives are willing to reach out and embrace our policies. I believe the most interesting feature of the amendment offered by the Acting Leader of the Opposi- tion was the fact that they now appear to be in favour of health insurance. Mr. Blair: We have been for years. Mr. Ellis: We have been arguing for health insurance up and down this country for years. The Liberals promised health insurance in 1919. As a matter of fact, the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Philpott) reminded us of that fact the other day. I presume we will wait an equally long period of time for fulfilment of programs which they have not as yet announced regarding health insurance. The Acting Leader of the Opposition has submitted an amendment in which he placed the official opposition in favour of health insurance. In these circumstances it seems very difficult to understand why, with the government apparently in favour of health insurance-around election times they cer- tainly are-and with the official opposition in favour of health insurance-the C.C.F. has always been in favour of health insurance- we have not got it. If the Conservatives are now in favour of health insurance, and if, as the hon. member suggests, they have been in favour of it all those years, the amazing thing is why have they not a hospitalization plan in Ontario where they have been in power for quite a few years. Saskatchewan instituted a hospi- talization plan. A hospitalization plan was instituted in Alberta and in British Columbia. 50433-12 The Address-Mr. Emis What about Ontario? Why have they not a hospitalization plan? If the Conservatives are serious in their support of health insur- ance, then I suggest they bear their weight of pressure on the premier of Ontario to get him immediately to implement at least a provin- cial hospitalization scheme in this province. A question of immediate need is before us at the present time, and what is going to be done about it? We have a problem which the government, though it refuses to admit it, will not be able longer to evade. It appears that the government should now give some assurance to the people of Canada that they are willing first of all to accept the fact that unemployment does exist in Canada. It will be a big step forward if we can get them to admit that. Then, after having admitted we have a serious unemployment problem in Canada, they should do something about it, undertake some immediate program. First of all, I would suggest that the government offer to the provinces that they will under- take complete responsibility for all employ- able unemployed in Canada. They promised that prior to 1945. At the present time unemployment is a national problem, which can only be met on the national level. The government should reassure the people of Canada by coming out now and agreeing that their responsibility lies in taking full respon- sibility for all employable unemployed in Canada. The federal government should be pre- pared immediately to undertake a public investment program in order not only to pro- vide employment for the trades, but also to put into circulation purchasing power which of course would be diffused throughout the entire economy and would assist the business- men and others than those directly employed in industry or in the construction industry. I think it is agreed that today we are living in an age when construction jobs are not car- ried on by scrapers and horses any more. There are very few pick and shovel construc- tion jobs today. Construction in the country today involves not merely the payment of wages to those directly employed. There is also the purchase of machinery which pro- vides employment for machine manufacturers and industry in various parts of Canada, and particularly in Ontario and Quebec where the industries are mainly located. The govern- ment could go a long way toward alleviating the unemployment problem if they were to undertake such a measure. I want to empha- size that this is a part of a public investment program and not a relief measure. There is great need for development of our resources in all parts of this country. 172 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Elis One of my colleagues mentioned also the that should certainly receive the attention of South Saskatchewan dam. I can think of no the government. I know in my own city better example of a type of project that there is quite a nunber of extremely dan- should be commenced at the present time gerous railway crossings and particularly than the South Saskatchewan river dam. I aiong the main une of the railroad where mentioned a moment ago that in a public there are double tracks. works project only a small percentage in These are some of the things which the some instances of the actual money involved government could be doing, but apparently goes into the area in which the construction they are prepared to sit back and do nothing project is taking place. In any great con- and allow the situation to become progres- struction project there is a great leakage; sively worse. My suggestion is that it is that is, in the purchase of machinery, the easier to deal with a problem now than a capital goods that are required to carry out year hence or two years hence. What is the project. A great deal of the money spent needed now is a littie bit of constructive on that project will be spent in buying planning, a littie foresight which the govern- machinery, in buying supplies in all parts of ment up to the present time bas not shown. Canada. There are many others that could be sug- With respect to the South Saskatchewan gested. Surely the government is in a posi- river dam, there are those who feel that the tion to know what the needs are in regard to benefits of that would accrue only to the public works projects across the country. people of Saskatchewan. Such an idea of They could for example provide employ- course completely flouts economic facts. In ment for a great many by the production of order to build that dam it will be necessary low rentai housing units in various parts to purchase a great deal of heavy machinery. of Canada where the housing situation is Where would that machinery come from? most serious. There are many other worth- It will come from the industrial areas of while projects which could be undertaken Ontario and Quebec. Certainly that is going by the government at this time if they were to be of great assistance to the industrial prepared to admit the seriousness o! the workers in those parts of the country. There unempioyment problem. If they are fot pre- are going to be all sorts of raw materials pared to admit the problem exists, then it that will come from various parts of the means that we in the opposition have to country. Admittedly some of these raw keep insisting that the government realizes materials will be purchased in the United the extent and the seriousness of the problem. States and perhaps in other countries, but My closing suggestion to the government is the bulk of these purchases will be made in once again that they offer some hope and Canada, and the amount of money spent on assurance to the people of Canada that they that dam will be spread throughout the are preparcd to face up to the economic country to the benefit of the entire dominion, probîems confronting the country at this not of one particular area of the country. time through a system o! forward pricing, Apart from the South Saskatchewan dam, by some effort to provide parity prices for there are many other projects that could be our farm commodities and by seeking carried on at the present time. Someone in through the means of public works projects the official opposition said something about to alieviate the immediate problem of unem- highways. I think we realize that in the pioyment where it exists iu Canada. United States all the main highways have The main thing is to agree now to assume been built by the federal government. Today responsibility for the employable unem- we in Canada have a situation where high- ployed in this country. No one province in ways are of national importance, and yet the this country is in a position to effectiveiy contribution the federal government has seen tackle the problem on its own. Unempioy- fit to make to the construction of highways is its share of the trans-Canada highway, which is very inadequate. What the federal might argue that it is an international prob- government should do is to undertake to be lem. Certainly it can be argued that it is responsible for building the main highways an international problem in countries whose across Canada, the main international and economies are as closely reiated as are those interprovincial highways in this country, thus of the United States and Canada. relieving the provinces of great financial It is a national problem which must be burdens in building and maintaining high- met at the national level. I hope the govern- ways, particularly in those parts of Canada ment wili not resort to its time-honoured that are sparsely settled. strategy of passing the buck to the provinces Then of course there is the question of and saying, "We will get together with the railway level crossings. That is a matter provinces and talk it over." They have talked tMr. Elais.] JANUARY 13. 1955 it over for a couple of years and in the mean- time a great many Canadians are in want, without employment and unabie ta maintain a decent standard of living. Once again I suggest that the federai gav- ernment must take upon its awn shoulders responsibility for the condition in which we find ourseIves today. Before the iast election they were running around the country say- ing, "You have neyer had it sa good. What a beneficent government we have down at Ottawa." You have neyer had it Sa good. Try telling one of the 600,000 unemplayed that he has neyer had it Sa goad. Try telling the farmers of this country wha have been iosing their markets that they have neyer had it sa good. I arn sure you will came in for a very rude awakening if you do. In ciosing, I simpiy want ta impress upan the government the necessity for immediate attention ta these mast seriaus prabiems. The people of Canada wiii await with a great deal of anticipatian the activities of the gov- ernment in this respect. Mr. F. D. Shaw (Red Deer): Mr. Speaker, frankly I was intrigued although amazed at certain statements made by the hon. mem- ber for Regina City (Mr. Ellis) during his address. He toid us, by inference at ieast, that Abraham Lincoln was a socialist. It is rather surprising and amazing that it takes but one short speech ta completeiy alter the facts of history. I listened with a great deal of amusement while be was damning the Liberais and Con- servatives and assuring the hause and the country that they affered no hope and in the same breath asserting that they had stolen practically ail that was gaad in the C.C.F. program. We are personaily convinced that by virtue of that theft, if for no other reason, they offer littie hope. The speech of the hon. member reminded me af one that was deiivered yesterday by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlami (Mr. Regier), who took us into New Brunswick, then into Quebec and then back ta British Columbia. Then in his spare time he com- mented an other things. I was reminded while listening ta the hon. member's speech, and wanting ta believe some of it, of iast Juiy when I was In Vancouver sitting in my car with the radia on. I -had noted there was ta be a program "Town Meeting in Canada" an the air, the subject ta be discussed being ca-existence, which of course embraced the general theme of whether it is possible for us ta live in peace In the same world with the communists. During that pragram I heard the han. member say that ane of the Social Credit leaders in Ottawa had stated, I assume The Address-Mr. Shaw in this hiouse, that he wanted war. Rernem- bering that, I could flot take him seriousiy yesterday, nor could I believe very much of what he said. I hope in my approach to current issues at this tirne I may be realistic, objective and fair. At least that is my desire. An examination of the speech from the throne does indicate certain bright spots. There is no question about that, and I wouid be the first ta admit it. Reference was made to the Disabied Per- sons Act having been proclaimed to go into effect on January 1 of this year. We wel- comed that act last spring and were glad ta see it proclaimed. We are pieased to note that ail the provinces of Canada have agreed ta enter into agreements with the federal gavernment. However, I arn extremely disappainted in' one respect. I have been compeiied ta con- clude that when the Minister of National Health and Weif are (Mr. Martin) made so certain last spring that he would give only the minimum of information ta the house, there was a reason for it. We questioned him -I did myself-with respect ta the regula- tions which might be passed. Once again, I did not secure very much information. I find now that the regulations are so narrow and restrictive in character that were the gavernmnent in my own province ta drap its own act and operate oniy under the joint act 50 per cent of the people now receiving dis- ability pensions in Alberta would be dropped completely from the rails. That indicates how much more restrictive this new act is than the one which we have had in operation in Alberta for more than a year and a haif. I regret that very much, because I had per- sanai reasons ta believe that in same respects aur own provincial act was too restrictive in character. The speech from the throne referred also ta something with which we have deait al- ready, namely, certain amendments ta the Unemployment Insurance Act. I arn not going ta taik about them, since we have aiready expressed aur views. One thing that does cancern us is that the gavernment has taken the position that un- employment is aniy seasonal and regional in character. Is it the intention of the govern- ment ta broaden its public works prograrn only in those areas where the condition hs known ta be extremely seriaus? I trust that that wiii flot be their approachl ta this problem. For years we have pressed, as have the Legian, for amendments to the War Veterans Allowance Act. We are pieased to note that this act is to be amended, that the rates are ta be increased, and that the amount of HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Shaw permissive income will also be increased. However, I think I should serve notice now that it is going to be extremely difficult for us to be satisfied with anything less than the recommendations submitted by the Canadian Legion, because there is every reason te believe that their recommendations are real- istic and are designed te meet cu-rrent condi- tions. We are also interested in noting that there are to be amendments to the Blind Persons Act. We understand the object of the amendments will be to lower the age of eligibility and raise the allowable income ceiling. We are in favour of this contem- plated action, though I would not suggest at the moment that we are going to commit ourselves with respect to all the aspects of the amendments which the government may at a later date bring down. However, we approve of thern in general. We note that a joint committee is to be set up for the purpose of studying the Municipal Grants Act. Personally I am quite dissatisfied with the act as it now stands. Altogether too many deserving communities have been left out in the cold, and we trust that the committee may see fit to recommend a broadening of the base of this act se that it may go far beyond its present scope. In fact, I think good arguments could be ad- vanced in support of the contention that it should cut completely across the board and cover all federal government installations within municipalities. I might well be 'asked whether I believe in the same thing from a provincial point of view; personally I do. Those are net all the bright spots in the speech from the throne, but they are the only ones te which I will -refer for the moment. Yesterday the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Murphy) made a plea for an extension of loans under the Canadian Farm Loan Act. He asked for a broadening of the regulations so that the act might apply within the prov- ince of New Brunswick. I have had some experience with -the application of that act throughout Canada generally, and I believe there are certain very serious weaknesses. One is that the government, or the board charged with the operation of the act, in making its assessment of a farmer's land and chattels, seems to work on the theory that some time hence there is going to be a serious depression and that values will there- fore be at a low level. Therefore, in assess- ing a farmer's property today for the purpose of determining whether they should authorize a loan they apply this fantastically low level of values. I am net blaming the persons who administer the act, because they are governed by the terms of the act itself and [Mr. Shaw.] its resulting regulations. But I have looked over certain applications and I am utterly amazed te see the low values being placed on land and chattels, the result being that hundreds if net thousands of Canadians are prevented from securing assistance under this act. In fact, I have been compelled te come te the conclusion that the act was net designed te assist people who really require help, because in most of the cases I have examined I have come te the conclusion that those who should qualify could have got along very nicely without 'any assistance whatsoever. I mention that only in passing because, while I do net know anything about the New Brunswick situation, and I am net referring te that situation in particular, the hon. mem- ber's reference te this matter brought my own experiences te mind. I might add that the limited number of loans thait have been made, and the small amount which has been made available through various loans, would indicate that there seems te be something seriously wrong with the operations of the act. I wish te come back now te the question of unemployment. In the speech from the throne the government contended that it is seasonal and regional. As far as I am con- cerned I believe that that is the master understaternent of the year. There is a certain amount of seasonal unemployment, it is true, and there is a certain ýamount of regional unemployment. There is some which one might designate as transitional unemploy- ment, but there are -strong indications that over and above this we are faced with a situation where altogether too many Cana- dians are unemployed and many of them see no hope in the foreseeable future. The government has stated that there are approximately 300,000 registered unemployed in this country. But it has been pointed out more than once in this house that there are also probably an equal number who, for some reason or other, have never registered at all, and reliable statistics seern te bear that out. There are indications at the present time, and I shall elaborate upon this in a moment, that certain of our important indus- tries have either collapsed or are in the proc- ess of se doing. I believe the coal mining industry is a pertinent example, and I will also refer te that later on. In this regard I would refer te the very noticeable, marked decline in net farm income. I think it was my leader, the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low), who referred te this as the price cost squeeze. He was referring on the one hand te higher operation costs, and lower returns on the JANUARY 13, 1955 other. This has caused a very uneasy feeling among the farmers of western Canada, and I amn sure among farmers in other provinces as well. We also have a feeling of uneasiness resulting !rom the continuation of the un- reasonably heavy burden of taxation which is certainly aggravating the situation. The people of my constituency read with a good deal of interest the reported remarks of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris) with respect to this matter. I cannot quote his words exactly but hie did indicate that hie was experiencing some concern on this matter, especially with that aspect of it deal- ing with sales and excise taxes. In my part of western Canada we faced a rather difficult period last year, and as far as agriculture is concerned it was possibly a bit more difficuit than is normally the case. These difficulties, in major parts, resulted fromn matters over which we have no contro . For example, we had extremely wet weather, unusually heavy hail, and frost whic struck the crops down prior to harvesting. But even worse, the frost came before the crops had ripened. Fortunately, while the picture looked extremely bleak around early October, the weather later changed and we were able to acquire the feed which is such an extremely important commodity in our mixed farming areas. The losses which have resulted have once again brought our farmers into direct confiict, if 1 may use the word in that sense, with our Prairie Farm Assistance Act. A year or two ago I took a full 40 minutes to point out what I considered to, be the existing weaknesses in the Prairie Farm Assistance Act, particularly as it applies to the non-drought areas of western Canada. That act is just not realistic in any sense at all. It fails utterly 'ta do the job which I think it should be designed to do in that area. As 1 said before, I cannot think of one single, solitary thing that has caused more bitter comment with respect to this govermnent than has that samne Prairie Farm Assistance Act. Bef are many more months go by I hope that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) may see fit to refer this act to the committee on agriculture with one important idea in mid, namiely that o! making it a!pply with some sense and reason to non-drought areas. I know that act must be a headache to all -the men who try ta administer it. I offer no criticismn whatsoever of those men. I know many o! them. They are trying desperately ta do a good job, but they are trying desperately ta do the impossible; and how frustrating that attempt must become. I say again ta the Minister of Agriculture.: For goodness' sake refer that act ta the com- mittee on agriculture and try to straighten out certain af those things. The Address-Mr. Shaw Speaking of unemployment and speaking of the collapse of industry, I arn compelled 'to make reference to one rather tragic happen- ing in my own constituency. Located about 120 miles west of Red Deer is a town called Nordegg; and located at Nordegg are the great Brazeau collieries, one of the most modern mines in western Canada. Following a disastrous fire about five years ago the above-ground installations were completely modernized and one of the finest briquetting plants was installed. It cannot be said by anyone that the mine has not operated effi- ciently either as a consequence of poor management or as a consequence of failure ta modernize. It is modemn and it has been managed well. In that community have lived more than 1,000 people. The coal produced in that area was a weather-resistant coal used for domestic heating, railway fuel and steam-raising in general. I do not know whether or not 1 have already mentioned this fact, but the capital value o! the installation there is about $1,500,000. This mine supplied fuel for the Canadian National Railways. Later it was reduced merely to providing station coal. In April of 1954, 200 men were laid off. News- paper reports indicate that next Sunday the mine will close down, with another 150 miners becoming unemployed. As I say, you cannot blame the operators. Over the past year production there has been declining by 20,000 tons per month. Whether or not the mine will be opened again will naturally depend upon a number of things. With those miners laid off at Nordegg and with the clos- ing o! that mine, it looks as though a ghost town is going to develop. It is true that there is a certain amount of logging and lum- bering in that area but it is not an industry of sufficient size to maintain that town. Not only is it a tragedy from the standpoint of miners and their dependents but personally I think it is a tragedy fromn the standpoint o! the national welfare and safety. Within the last four years about 2,000 miners have lost their jobs out there as a consequence of mines closing. Mr. Speaker, I approach this subject not with the idea of criticizing anybody but with the idea of trying to point out the necessity of speeding up our efforts to keep this industry alive. We know what have been the causes f or the deterioration in that industry in Canada. There has been the loss of markets because of competitive fuels. There has been the replacement of railway locomotives by diesel units and conversion o! coal-burning locomotives to oil burners. We know that oil and gas progressively 'have elimlnated coal from, aur local and our industrial markets. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Shaw We also know that excessive transportation costs have made almost impossible the cap- ture and the retention of eastern Canadian markets for Alberta coal. We know also that the heavy importation of United States coal into central Canada has had a disastrous effect. More United States coal is imported into central and eastern Canada than is pro- duced in western Canada. Production in 1953 alone in our Canadian coal industry was 11 million tons less than it was during the previous year, and recent statistics indicate further substantial decreases. If we are satis- fied to let our coal industry fall into decay, all well and good; we are doing the right thing. But if we as Canadians believe that the future may demand an adequate coal supply-and certainly that is what I believe-we should keep our miners where they can continue in the only work which they are used to. If it is our desire to do that, then certainly we cannot allow that industry to fall apart. We know that we have the dominion coal board. We know of the objectives which they set up in 1947; and those were good ob- jectives. They were going to maintain an adequate supply of coal for all of our national requirements. Of course, it may be said that we have sufficient for our national require- ments. They were going to support a sound and healthy coal-producing industry in Can- ada. Of course we have not just accomplished that objective. One of their purposes was the development of a steady and adequate market for the output of Canadian mines. We have not been able to do that. There was to be provision for fair wages and reasonably full employment for Canadian miners. Of course when we have had 2,000 of them become permanently unemployed out there, I believe, as far as miners are concerned, within the last four years, certainly we have not been able to maintain reasonably full employment. Then of course the board had as another objective, I believe, the extension of our markets for Canadian coal with the resultant saving of foreign exchange. Of course, instead of our finding extended mar- kets for our western Canadian coal, we are losing markets. I am not blaming the dominion coal board at all. I am just trying to point out for our own benefit that while in 1947 we had five good objectives, with the exception of one we have just missed our mark completely. Personally I feel that the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys (Mr. Prudham) is concerned about this matter. He is an Albertan. This matter falls within his department. I know that his department, in co-operation with the Alberta government, bas been doing certain things. The federal government has its subvention program. The [Mr. Shaw.] Alberta government, for example, has its fund for the rehabilitation of these men, among other things. We understand that the two are co-operating from a scientific point of view in an effort to find new uses, and consequently new markets, for this product. I have read the minister's statement, and I read all the debate which took place last June. I know from the statement of the minister that he feels, so he has said, that with a population of approximately 22 million at some future date, this country is going to need every source of fuel-I believe he said even fire- wood. Anyone who understands the coal mining industry must realize that you cannot close these mines for long periods of time without serious deterioration, and in some cases they may become completely valueless and useless. If these experienced miners are to be removed and re-established in other lines of activity, it is highly possible that they will never go back to mining. Certainly, there is not very much chance of their sons ever taking up min- ing. Therefore, if what the minister states is true, that some time hence we will undoubtedly require all this fuel, it is going to be a very bleak picture if our mines cannot be put into operation because of deterioration and if we have to start to train miners, which is a long and hard process. Now, when the gold mining industry in Canada showed some signs of deterioration and when the members from those areas spoke of the ghost towns that would develop, there was no hesitation on the part of this parliament in granting subsidies of $80 mil- lion, I believe. The united mine workers out there I believe asked the federal government to consider this question. They asked also that the federal government consider the question of restricting coal imports from the United States. I understand from a press report that a commission is presumably studying these two aspects of the problem. I should like to know what developments have taken place up to date. Are there likely to be subsidies? Is the government likely to restrict the importation of coal from the United States? I understand also that a con- ference was held here last fall. I believe the miners themselves were represented, the operators were represented, the provincial government and the Department of Mines and Technical Surveys. I understand this whole matter was gone into rather thoroughly, and I should like to know what has resulted from that conference. I should like to know what has been done as a consequence of that conference. Let me repeat, Mr. Speaker, that I am not trying to place the blame. I know JANUARY 13, 1955 the provincial government has a responsibility ini this field. I know that the federal govern- ment has a responsibility in this field. I amn not; trying to place the responsibility. I arn trying to emphasize the urgency of preserving this industry and of preserving the way of J.ife of so many of these miners and their dependents. As I say, they have been added to this unemployment roll. We have had some question raised as to whose responsibility the employable unem- ployed are. If someone were to ask me whose responsibility the employable unem- ployed are, I would give my answer. I would not; find it difficult to agree with the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Philpott) who, in one of his columns which appeared in the Red Deer Advocate of December 1, 1954, had this to say: It seems to me that there Is one point on which nobody in Canada should quibble. The federal. government la primarily responsible for full employment or non-f ull employment. It is the federal authority, and only the federal authority, which lias the necessary control over exports and imports, as weil as over interprovincial trade. It is the federal authority alone which lias the necessary power over taxes, rnoney and credit. Then he goes on: Nobody in any political party lias challenged the aboya principle for at least 20 or 25 years past. Then he adds this: It is a disgrace in this day and age that any decent citizen of Canada should be forced to choose between a soup kitchen and starvation. Vancouver and other great cities of Canada have every right to demand that the federal government should stand behind them when it la necessary to give financial assistance to unemployed flot; eligible for unemployment insurance. Now, I hope that the hon. member for Vancouver South will be able to seil this to ail of his colleagues on the other side of the house. I .find no cause to disagree with him, although I would probably be a bit more realistic and say I do kelieve the provinces and municipalities bear some responsibility too. We should not be so concerned about trying to pin down responsibility as we shouid be about getting ail to assume full responsibility and to bring a solution to a probiem that is certainly most serious. Now, Mr. Speaker, as one Who is firmly convinced that ail speeches should be cut to about 30 minutes, possibly I should set a f airly reasonable example. (Translation): Mr. Arthur Mas» (Kamouraska>: Mr. Speaker, at the beginning of each terni, I usually speak thus to the students»of Laval The Address-Mr. Masse University: Whilst you are duty-bound by the university to attend my lectures, it is my duty to teach to the best of my -ability, to be of service to you and the community at large. Today, I find myseif in the same position as far as my electors are concerned, because they have entrusted me with the task of making their feelings of loyal-ty known to the government of Canada. It is ýalso my d.uty to bring their requests, their aspirations and their wishes to the attention of the government. I must also congratulate the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the -address in reply to the speech from the throne, because they have been a credit to the electoral districts they represent and I arn happy to offer them my sincere con- gratulations. They have faithfully served their respective constituencies. Mr. Speaker, in the exercise of my pro- fession, I have made it a point to examine loyally and. dîspassionately ail situations and resolved neyer to form an opinion before gîving the matter full consideration. I have been well served by this practice in the exercise of my profession, and I amn happy to say that I have endeavoured, to follow the saine tactics in the disýcharge of my political duties. I might have been late to embark ,upon a politicai career. Yet, I feel happy about it, because I was thus enabled to acquire an experience of facts and deeds of which I would have been otherwise deprived and of which I may now avail myseif in numerous circunistances. Mr. Speaker, I will not; delay any longer than necessary the hon. members, because 1 inten.d, during my speech, to discuss agri- culture in particular, which is, with lumber- ing, the main industry in the county of Kamouraska. Besides, when speaking about agriculture in lower Quebec, it is logical to associate it to the iumbering industry. It is becoming, 'at the outset cf a new year, to a good head of family or a good comn- pany accountant, to revlew the developments, good or bad, that occurred, during the past year, in order to be able to alter one's stand, if need be. The governiient's achievements, during the year, have been reiatively satis- factory. I well realize, however, that it Is difficult for, any governnient to satisfy each and every citizen of this country but I amn confident that the government of Canada, during this past year, have acted in na 178 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Masse partisan fashion, that they have not at- right bon. the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. tempted to serve one man, one province, one Gardiner) in connection with wooded lots. For municipality or one party, but have tried many years, I have insisted on the establish- to stabilize the economy of the nation as a ment of wooded lots on illustration stations, whole. particularly at the Ste. Anne de la Pocatiêre experimental station, for the benefit o! the Mr. Speaker, the year began auspiciously tarmers visiting that district. I am glad today with the Prime Minister's trip around the to congratulate and thank the hon. minister world. for this projeet is being implemented. It is important that a country like Canada To realize how much our forests contribute be able to communicate to such distant areas to agriculture in the lower Quebec area, one the feelings it nurses for those who cannot need only read publication No. 890 o! the have the same ideas or the same mentality, federal Department o! Agriculture. This but who are all filled with the same spirit of!pamphlet deals with wooded lots on Ontario mutual co-operation, for the purpose of pro- farms and, at page 22, it is indicated that on moting their own interests. the 162 farms whicb were thoroughly investi- I was somewhat surprised by the statements gated, production reached a total value o! made on the other side of the house yester- $516 per farm. day and today. If account is taken of the Tbat is indisputable proof that lumber- ten by-elections held since the last general ing plays a capital role together with agri- elections, in which by-elections the Liberal culture in regions sucb as ours, wbere forests party carried six seats, the Progressive Con- cover about 75 per cent o! the land, only 22 servative party three, and the C.C.F. party per cent being suitable for cultivation. one only, the statements made by some Those experiments have been conducted in prophets are somewhat surprising and there the province o! Ontario with the co-operation is no doubt that the Liberal party still has of the federal Depantment o! Agriculture and the confidence of the public. o! the Ontanio government. I hope similan In the course of the same year, the disabled experiments will be undertaken in My prov- persons of Canada were fully satisfied with ince to show how necessary it is to comple- the attitude taken by the government ofite ment farming through the use o! a wooded country in its endeavours to help these less lot in most regions. fortunate ones. Consequently, it is my opinion On behaîf o! the farmers o! my county and that the Canadian government served the a number of co-operative societies, namely country very well. the U.C.C., I ask the Minister o! Agriculture I had intended at the beginning of my to maintain in operation the Agricultural remarks to speak mainly of agriculture, and Pnices Support Act, especially with respect I must confine myself to that subject since to butter. The average farm in our province agriculture is the main industry in Kamour- covers from 80 to 100 "arpents" and earned aska county. for its owner, last year, from $1,400 to $1,500. There is no doubt that revenues were not However, after the farmer bas paid bis as large last year as they had been during the municipal taxes, amounting to around $100, preceding four years. But our Quebec farmers provided for the maintenance of his buildings, do not lose hope. They are not unduly opti- valued at some $8,000 or $10,000, and for a mistic but, on the other hand, they do not family of five or six children, bis income is lean to pessimism, which no brave soul should practically all spent. I therefore believe it feel. is in the government's interest to maintain Weather conditions were bad from early tbe stand it bas taken regardîng the support spring to the fall; farmers had a hard time of !arm prices. seeding their fields and taking in their crop. Mn. Speaker, I had intended to say a !ew In certain areas the crops were very good but words on the problem o! unemployment, but they were not so good in other areas, and I I am rather pleased witb the government's am afraid that in some parts of my county stand on the matter. In the past there was seed grain will be less plentiful next season. no unerployment among our Quebec farmens, However, as lumbering is the essential but today modem ideas have somewhat complement of agriculture in my constituency, changed the attitude or tbinking o! aur young I was glad to note the good will shown by the men. [Mn. Masse.] JANUARY 13, 1985 I think it is time for all workers, whether they be on farms or elsewhere, to contribute to and enjoy unemployment insurance benefits in order that in circumstances which are entirely beyond their control they may be in a position to meet the situation. I have a suggestion to make to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Pickersgill). As it happens my remarks have been misinterpreted in this house, so much so that I am believed to be opposed to immigration, which is not the case. As regards my own constituency more partic- ularly, I believe that the available space is rather restricted. Would it not be possible to restrict immigration during the winter months, that is from November to March, taking into account the rigours of Our climate and the situation with which the new Cana- dian is faced on his arrival? I believe that that would help to make the future home of newcomers more pleasant. (Text): On motion of Mr. Masse the debate was adjourned. THE ROYAL ASSENT A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows: Mr. Speaker, the Honourable the Deputy Gover- nor General desires the immediate attendance of this honourable house In the chamber of the honourable the Senate. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate chamber. And being returned: The Royal Assent Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following bill: An act to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Mr. Harris moved the adjournment of the house. He said: Tomorrow we will take up the resolutions under government notices of motions, dealing with the resolution hav- ing to do with the appointment of a rules committee and the resolution having to do with the appointment of the Criminal Code committee. I understand that there will be some discussion on these but probably not a prolonged debate. We will then come back to this present debate. Mr. Low: May I ask the house leader if it is the intention to sit tomorrow night? Mr. Harris: It did not occur to anyone on this side as far as I know not to sit tomorrow night. Mr. Fleming: May I ask if it is the inten- tion to call the two resolutions in that order, the one dealing with the rules committee first? Mr. Harris: The first motion is the one having to do with NATO which is going to stand. The second in order is the one having to do with the rules committee. Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 10.10 p.m. HOUSE OF COMMONS Friday, January 14, 1955 The house met at 2.30 p.m. HOUSE OF COMMONS APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved: That a select committee to be designated be appointed to consider with Mr. Speaker the pro- cedure of this house for the purpose of suggesting any changes that may be desirable to assure the more expeditious dispatch of public business, with power to send for persons and papers, and to report from time to time its findings and recommendations to the house. He said: Mr. Speaker, hon. members will recall that there was a committee on proce- dure established during the last session of parliament which held meetings up to very near the end of the session, and which brought in a report recommending that a committee be set up again at this session, at an early date. The purpose of this motion is to ask the house to act in conformity with the recom- mendation contained in that report. I think it is recognized by all members of the house that an effort should be made to bring about a more orderly manner of hand- ling the business of the house, and that it should be possible to do that without in any way curbing unduly or limiting unduly the freedom of speech and discussion in matters concerning the country's business. There have been various ways suggested. One of the minor ways was an improvement in the manner of handling resolutions respect- ing the introduction of bills with monetary applications; and I think we were all very pleased the other day when it was possible to deal with the formalities of fifteen resolu- tions in a matter of only two or three min- utes, instead of fifteen times that amount of time which would have been required had those formalities been carried out in the usual fashion. I do not think anyone would seek the elimination of the traditional formalities that have their place in the proper handling of the business of the house; but I think hon. members in all parts of the house would wish to have that done in a manner which would leave as much tinie as possible for the con- sideration of the less formal aspects of the business of the house. I understand it is by general agreement that this motion is placed before Your Honour today and that, though there are varying views as to the advisability of some of the amendments to the rules that were considered last year, there is the general feeling that an attempt should be made to improve those rules and that the matter should be disposed of as expeditiously as the proper consideration of it will permit. I do not think I can add anything more because the terms of the resolution in them- selves appear to be terms that should com- mend themselves to the judgment of the house: "for the purpose of suggesting any changes that may be desirable to assure the more expeditious dispatch of public business." I think that is the goal each and every one of us would have in mind-but only such changes as "may be desirable." I believe we would agree that it is not desirable to have rules that permit of obstruction, but neither is it desirable to have rules that interfere with the proper exercise of the responsibilities of each of us to discuss those matters that are prop- erly before the house. I would hope that the committee could be set up at an early date and that it would, as I am sure it will, envisage its responsi- bilities in the light of the dignity of parlia- ment and the great price we all attach to free democratic processes in dealing with public affairs. -Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton): Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt the present resolu- tion will receive the unanimous support of the house. May I express my own pleasure at seeing the motion brought on early, because I think it is helpful that this committee should be set up at an early date. The terms of reference are identical with those that have been approved by the house now on three previous occasions. Actually the committee is now in the course of being appointed for the fourth consecutive session. That' is not to say that the committee has been dilatory in its work in the past; I do not think that can be fairly said. But the task is not an easy one, and the committee has, I think, taken a fairly comprehensive view of its responsibilities. With the proposal that effort be made to expedite the trans- action of public business in this house, I am sure there will be agreement. Certainly, 182 HOUSE OF COMMONS Special Committee on Procedure those who sit in this part of the house will rules of parliarent across the years, not give every co-operation to any sound method the rules of any one session of parliament, for transacting the business of Canada in this or of any parliarent between two elections. place in a proper and expeditious manner, I realize the probler that that creates, be- provided that it is done in keeping with the cause we are in a derocracy in wbich the essential rights of members of this house, all rajority governs. But I suggest that with of them, and with due regard for the dignity respect to the rules of parliament particular and decorum which ought to characterize the care bas ta be taken that a government transaction of the business of this country. majority does not use that rajority to make May I say also that I am glad to see on rules whicb unduly, if I ray use the Prime the order paper, in response to suggestions Minister's words, interfere witb the freedor that have come frorn us in this part of the of speech and the rights of ail of us who house in the past, and notably from the are here. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew), a I remind hon. members that it is a long greater volume of government business than time, 28 years, I believe, since the last bas appeared on the order paper 1at this stage general revisian of the rules of this bouse in past sessions. I think that is an indication was rade. That reans tbat the members of desire on the part of the government to of parliarent in 1927 were raking rules help all in this house to contribute on their not just for tberseives but for a good many part to expediting the business of the house. parliarents that bave followed. We shah Now, sir, there is one matter that does not have ta take that appraacb in this cam- require more than casual mention. When rittee, and I urge very strongly that it be this committee was set up two years ago, in recagnized right frarn the start, not tbat January, 1953, I raised the point that oc- unanirity rust be required for ans change, casion might arise for widening somewhat but that there be izretty general agreement the terms of reference. The Prime Minister amangst the representatives o! both sides o! at that time said that if any such occasion the bouse, amongst representatives of al arose he would see to it that the matter was parties, befare any very seriaus changes are brought before the house and every as- made. sistance given to the commilttee in making Just ta make it crystal clear, Mr. Speaker, sure its terms of reference were wide that I do nat mean by that that I am enough to do whatever it thought neces- oppased ta any changes that interfere with sary in the way of review of the rules. any af aur existing practices, I want ta Actually, in the discussion in the committea, repeat wat I have already said in public it has not yet been found necessary to ask the and in this session, that I tbink we can well bouse for any widening of terns; but I pre- affard, on a fair basis ta everybady, withaut sume if such a situation should arise the unduly interfering witb the rigbts of free Prime Minister would be good enough to speech, ta cut the 40-minute limit an speeches indicate that co-operation will be given in dawn ta 30 minutes. There is objection ta bringing that matter before the bouse as that from same quarters, I have na doubt, but soon as possible. 1 want ta make it clear that in asking for Sir, I do not know whether, when the com- general agreement ta be the basis af any mittee makes its report-and I have no doubt change, it is nat sirply a case of ry ob- it will make its final report at this session-it jecting ta any and ail changes, because there will be possible for the house to receive the is this change I have suggested ta wbich report with the same unanimity that has I am prepared ta agree, and there are others characterized the proceedings of the house as well. today; but certainly as to the setting up of It seems ta me the principle sbould be, this committee I am sure there will be general is the change fair ta ail members of the agreement in the house. bouse, or is it a change that interferes with Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North the rights of any particular section a! tbe Centre): Mr. Speaker, we too welcome the hat te art dae nat u isp e t proposal that this committee on procedure terfere wit the s o! the inort be establised at an early date, and weparticular the long- shall be glad to place our members on the estabhished traditional rights tbat helong ta committee and give the question of house ail private members respecting the raising business our very serious consideration. How- of grievances and the dbscussing af expendi- ever, I feel that once again I must make tures o! public roneys. I want ta say, Mr. the point which we feel very strongly, namely, Speaker, that when it cores ta any changes that the rules of the house are the posses- affecting tbe right ta raise grievances on sion of the whole house. They are the going into supply, when it cores ta hiriting [Mr. Fleming.w JANUARY 14, 1935 discussion of expenditure of public funds, I think those on the comrnittee frorn the other side know that they will find in us on this side a certain degree of obstinacy. We f eel that these traditional rights should be protected very carefuily, and the respon- sibility for that protection rests just as mucb on those who constitute the mai ority in this bouse as it does on those of us who are in the minority. I say again I arn glad to have tbis committee established, and I arn glad it is being establisbed early. We shall give the work o! that committee our best and most serious attention in the hope that some changes in tbe rules that will help to expedite the business of the house can be made at this session. But let us remember that, through ail of this, what we are dealing with is flot the rules f or one session or f or one parliament. They are the rules of parlia- ment as a whole across the years. Mr. Victor Quelch (Acadia>: I might say tha-t we in this group are also glad that this motion to set up a comrnittee on procedure has been brought on in the early days o! the session. We believe it is possible to take steps 'to expedite the business and efficiency of the bouse without seriously impairing the privileges and the rights of the members, and we certaînly believe that it would be of importance 'to cut tbe length of speeches fromn 40 minutes to 30 minutes. We believe that by so doing we would be irnproving the speeches because so often a lot of padding is put in a speech in order to fi out the 40 minutes. We trust that it will be possible at this session for this committee to make greater progress than it bas been able to do in the past. Mr. Angus Maclnis (Vancouver- Kingsway): Mr. Speaker, as bas been said, I do not; wish unduly to delay the passing of this resolu- tion, but I have tbe conviction that we shall have considerable discussion in this bouse if any report is brought back from the corn- mittee, and perbaps it would be better to have a littie !of that discussion before we go into comrnittee s0 that we shah bhave some idea of wbere we stand. I have to say that I have noticed recently a feeling that the time of parliarnent in session should be cut down. That seems strange after the action we took hast year to see that we were fairiy welh remunerated for the time we were here. I have seen tbroughout the press during the recess expressions of opinion in regard to par- liament that did neither credit to the institu- tion of parliament itself nor to the newspapers but was apt, in rny opinion, ta raise doubts in the minds of people as regards parliament's value. Now perhaps we could shorten the Special Commifttee on PTocedure time we are here by hurrying up the pro- cedure and by rushing things through. I believe that in the Soviet union they get away with one-day sessions. Possibly those who are impatient of the time the members hold up the house would not go that far, but that is a target that we could have in mind. Let me draw to the attention of the bouse the purpose for which the rules as they are have been made, as expressed by one Hatsell who deait with precedents on proceedings in the House of Commons quite a wbile ago in 1818. We find that citation 900, in Beau- chesne's Parliamientary Rules and Forms, second edition, states: So far the maxim la certainly true and founded on good sense that as it is always in the power of the majority by their numbers ta stop any improper measures proposed on the part of their opponents. the only weapon by which the minorlty can defend themselves from similar attempts from those in power are the forma and ruies and proceedings which have been found necessary from time to time and are become the standing orders of the house, by a strict adherence ta which the weaker party can alone be protected £rom those irregular- ities and abuses which these forms were intended ta check, and which the wantonness of power Is but too often apt to suggest ta large and succesaful majorities. I hope the large and successful mai orities in this house will restrain tbemselves some- wbat and in their own interests be sure that the minority has ail the time ahd ail the opportunity which is available to them to express themselves in this bouse. I have served on most of the committees on procedure that have been set up since I came bere, with the exception of one session when through illness I was flot able to serve, and I hope I can be on the committee this year wben it is set up. I amn sure we can corne to some understanding as to the recom- mendations to be made to this house to better streamline the procedure, provided of course that the governiment members are not too impatient with those of us who are anxlous to maintain those privileges which we have. I remember when serving on the com- mittee last year that the leader of the house asked the opposition members, and perbaps he asked ail of the memibers, at the conclusion o! the committee's deliberations, if they had any further suggestions to make as to how the rifles could be irnproved. I recali teling him, that I was not; going to make any sug- gestions as to how my own abilities, if that is the proper word to use, to criticize the government might be curtailed, but I told him that I was wiiling if we got something in exchange. 184 HOUSE OF COMMONS Joint Committee on Criminal Law I heard over the radio last Sunday night ordered by the committea for the use cf the com- a comment attributed to Sir John A. Mac- mittee and cf parliament, and that standing order64 cf the Flouse cf Commons te suspended in donald concerning horse-trading. If I might relation thereto; paraphrase this I would say I think we will That the commitice have power te engage the stand solidly on fundamentals but we will seivices cf ceunsel; horse-trade on details.a message e sent t the Senate request-hors-trae ondetals.ing that bouse te unite witb this bouse for the Mr. J. R. Garland (Nipissing): As a rela- ah and te select, if the Senate deemsadvisable, seme cf its members te act on the pro- tively young man in terms of service as far pesed joint committee. as this house is concerned, I am a little reluctant to offer advice but I certainly wel- He sa: A t the ho m brs ae come the proposed setting up of this com- a reterence was made te inquire inte and mittee because I believe very deeply in this report upen the questions whether the cri- matter-that the great strength of our system minai law et Canada reiating to (a) capital of parliament is due to the fact that it is punishment, and (b) corporal punishment or made up of a great cross-section of all types (c) lotteries sheuid be amended in any respect of people in this country. and, if se, in what manner and te what ex- There are some of us who are not profes- tent. Certainiy these who served upen the sional politicians and there are some of us cemmittee will recail werking very assidu- who do not want to sit here all the time, nor eusly on that, in ce-operatien with represen- should this become a place for those who tatives appeinted by the ether place; and that have already made their mark in the business field and are looking for what little bit of wi t sai thîs: honour may be attached to this place. I think he itie fidn that we can keep our system strong only it mplete at the current session cf this parliament its this house continues to attract to it a broad inquiries into the matters referred te it for reportand, accerdingly, recemmends: cross-section of people in this country. l. That a cerrespending ccmmittee te establlshed I just wanted to say that at this time, and and appointed early in the next session cf this par-liament te resurne the studies and continue the I am looking forward to some tangible results inquiries initiated by ibis committce. from this committee. The purpose et the present resoiution is te Motion agreed to. do iust that. Hon. members wiii see upon reading the terms et the resolution that CRIMINAL CODE they are ail the sarne with the exception et the toiiowing, narnely: JOINT COMMITTEE TO REPORT ON SPECIFIC That the minutes cf the preceedings and the MATTERS RELATED TO THE CRIMINAL LAW evidence cf the special committee appoînîed last sessien te inquire inte and report upon the fore- Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice) gcing questions, tegether with ail papers and moved: records laid before it, be referred te the said That a joint committee of both bouses of parlia- cmmittee. ment be appointed to inquire into and report upon The reason tor the inclusion et this last- the questions whether the criminal law of Canada relating to (a) capital punishment, (b) corporal punishment or (c) lotteries should be amended in there is anything more te be said and I ar any respect and, if so, in what manner and te sure that members et the crmittee will be what extent; anxieus te have it re-estabiished as soon as That 17 members of the House of Commons, to be designated by the house at a later date, be mem- possible in order that they may continue with bers of the joint committee on the part of this their werk. bouse; that the quorum of the said committee be nine members thereof; and that standing order 65 of the House of Commons be suspended in relation thereto; That the committee have power to appoint, from among its members, such subcommittees as may be deemed advisable or necessary; te call for persons, ACTION wITH RESPECT TO EXPeRT 0F papers and records; to ait while the house is sitting STRATEGIC GOODS and to report from time to time; That the minutes of the proceedings and the On the orders et the day: evidence of the special committee appointed last session to inquire into and report upon the fore- Hon. W. EarI Rowe (Acting Leader cf the going questions, together with all papers and Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I should like te records laid before it, be referred to the said ask a question et the Prime Minister (Mr. committee; That the committee have power to print such St. Laurent) hased on a report in the Ment- papers and evidence from day to day as may be real Gazette this merning under the captien, [Mr. Maclnnis.] JANUARY 14, 195 "1U.K. plugs leaks in export of strategic goods ta reds"'. Would the Prime Minister in- form the house as ta whether or not; any fuirther action is being contemplated by the government in this matter as it affects Canada? Righi Han. L. S. Si. Laurent : Mr. Speaker, I arn sorry that I did not see this report ini the Montreal Gazette ta which the hon, gentleman refers. We have not found that there was any leakage cf strategic goods from, Canada ta the reds. It may be there is information in tbe United Kingdom wbich would indicate that strategic goods from some sources may be leaking througb ta the reds, but I have no doubt that if that is so it will be one of the matters that will be brought to aur attention at the London conference, and I can assure the hon. member and the bouse that we are most anxious there should be no such leakage. If there is any indication that further action by us would be useful it certainly will be con- sidered and proper measures taken. HIGHWAYS POSSIBLE TRANSFER 0F NORTHWEST HICHWAY FROMV DEPARTMENT 0F NATIONAL DEFENCE On the orders of the day: Mn. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops): Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister whether any decision has been taken ta transfer responsi- bility for the northwest highway from the Department of National Defence ta samne other department? If so, what is the decision and when would any such proposed transfer be made? Righi Han. L. S. Si. Laurent j Mr. Enfield: The chairman of that council rnentioned that arrangements would soon be made- Scme hon. Members: Question. Mr. Enfield: In view of the reference ta sharing the cost of civil defence made by the chairman of that council, can the minister say if any agreement has been entered into by the federal governrnent and the province of Ontario providing for the sharing of the cost of civil defence on a basis similar to that con- tained in arrangements made with other provinces? Hon. Paul Martin : Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman gave me notice of his intention to ask this question. I can say that following the conferences 1 have had with the premier of Ontario and the head of the metropolitan governing body in Toronto, I arn hopeful it will be possible for an announcement along these lines to be made about the middle of February. FARM LOANS REQUEST FOR LENIENCY IN MAKING COLLECTIONS On the orders of the day: Mr. E. G. McCullough (Macs. Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Mînister of Finance. Can the minister give an assurance that during the present financial emergency the utmost leniency. will be exercised in the matter of collections from western farmers who have borrowed under the Farm Improvement Loans Act or the farm boan board? Han. W. E. Harris (Minister cf Finance): Mr. Speaker, I arn not aware of there being any complaints about the manner in which these collections are made, but 1 can assure the hon. member that the officials who admin- ister the acts will bear in mind the terrns of the acts and the spirit parliament had in mind in passing them. (Translation): VETERANS AFFAIRS INQUIRY INTO TRAGEDY AT STE. FOY HOSPITAL, QUEBEC CITY Mr. J. W. Dufresne (Quebec West): Mr. Speaker, I have a question ta put ta the Min- ister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Lapointe), of which 1 have already given him notice. Is the minister aware of the fact that a tragedy has only very recently taken place in. the veterans hospital, Laurier boulevard and Ste. Foy road, in Quebec city, where HOUSE OF COMMONS Inquiries of the Ministry one of the patients, a member of the armed forces, was found hanging by the neck? If the minister does know about this incident, will he say whether an inquiry has been instituted and what have been its findings? Has the minister given instructions so that more adequate supervision may be exercised in order to avert repetition of such a tragedy? Hon. Hugues Lapointe (Minister of Veterans Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I was informed of the tragic accident to which the hon. mem- ber refers. An inquiry has been held. It has revealed that there was nothing to indicate that such an accident was about to take place. As a matter of fact the provincial police have conducted an investigation into the matter and the coroner's verdict was that it was a case of "suicide while temporarily insane," death "not being attributable to negligence on anybody's part". I can assure my hon. friend that all D.V.A. hospitals are instructed to take proper pre- cautions at all times. (Text): BUTTER SUPPORT PRICE-INQUIRY AS TO CONTINUATION On the orders of the day: Mr. H. R. Argue (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Agriculture say whether the present support price for butter will be continued as requested by the Quebec section of the farmers' union and other farm organi- zations? Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture): The present support price for butter will be continued until May 1. It is not customary for the government to make decisions with regard to the future this far in advance. IMMIGRATION REPORTED STATEMENT AS TO FUTURE REDUCTION On the orders of the day: Mr. Carl O. Nickle (Calgary South): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration based on a report carried yesterday in the Calgary Albertan quoting Mr. J. D. McFar- lane of Ottawa, chief inspector of immigration, as stating that immigration will be reduced in future. Some hon. Members: Question. Mr. Nickle: The question is, sir, was Mr. McFarlane speaking on behalf of the govern- ment in making this statement? Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Citizen- ship and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I did not see the quotation to which reference has [Mr. Dufresne.] been made and I think I had better have a look at it before making any statement. GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS INCOME TAX APPEAL BOARD-REFERENCE TO ENTERTAINMENT OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS On the orders of the day: Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre): Mr. Speaker, is the Prime Minister yet in a position to report to the house as to the results of his inquiry into the circum- stances surrounding the income tax appeal board's rejection of a claim relating to a certain plush residence, and can he tell the house the name of the firm which made the application in question? Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): I am not yet in a position to say to what extent one can go in view of the fact that under the act an appellant from an income tax assessment can ask for a hearing in camera. That is a right it is not within the discretion of the board to refuse and the practice of the board, about which I have not yet sufficient legal advice, is that when such an application is made there is no disclosure made about the identity of the appellant. Mr. Knowles: Then may I ask a sup- plementary question either of the Prime Minister or of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris)? In view of the public interest in this matter, is consideration being given to amending the necessary legislation so as to remove this cloak of secrecy from practices of this kind? Mr. St. Laurent: Up to the present time there has been no positive advice given us to the effect that an amendment would be necessary. If it appears that nothing can be done without amendment, then of course consideration will be given to whether and in what form an amendment should be brought before the house. PRAIRIE FARM ASSISTANCE SUGGESTED AMENDMENT OF ACT TO COVER FLOODED ACREAGE On the orders of the day: Mr. H. A. Bryson (Humboldt-Melfort): Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Will the government at this session of parliament give consideration to amending the Prairie Farm Assistance Act to provide that flooded acreage the farmer intended to seed be, for the purpose of the act, considered seeded acreage? JANUARY 14, 1955 Right Hon. J. G. Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I should like to express my appreciation to the hon. member for having given me notice of his question. I would like to read to the house the section of the act which would have to be amended if the suggested action were undertaken: (d) "cultivated land" means land that in the year of award was seeded to crop or in summer fallow and includes land seeded to grass in any year if the productivity thereof was maintained in the year of award; With regard to the phrase in the question "intended to be seeded", I do not know of any way in which we can amend the act in order to make it possible to have a provision of that kind. If we were going to amend the act it would have to take under consideration the fact that what is being pressed upon us at this time is something entirely different from anything we had in mind when the act was passed. The act was passed to take care of drought and the terms of it are suf- ficiently loose that we have been able to apply it to flooded areas under certain cir- cumstances. There is some question as to the manner in which it would be amended if it were decided to do so and it is of course a matter which will be given consideration. But I would like to point out that that was not the intention of the act when placed on the statute book. CHEESE REPORTED RUMOURS OF FURTHER LARGE SHIPMENTS INTO CANADA On the orders of the day: Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Acting Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) a question. I think he needs no notice of it. In view of the grave concern expressed by the dairymen throughout Canada with regard to rumours that other large shipments of cheese are to be expected in Canada, can the minister say whether he or the government expects increased shipments in the next month or so? Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce): Perhaps I could answer that question, Mr. Speaker. We do not expect any further substantial shipments of cheese from any source for at least six months and probably at least nine months. Inquiries of the Ministry PUBLIC SERVICE RESIGNATION OF DR. L. B. THOMSON AS DIRECTOR OF P.F.R.A. On the orders of the day: Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): The other day the hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) asked me a question about the resignation of Dr. L. B. Thomson. It was a question that had been fairly carefully framed and I asked for time to see it in Hansard before attempt- ing to answer it. I am obliged to the hon. gentleman for his patience in waiting until my colleague the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) was in his seat to make a further answer. I suggested to him that there might be some supplementary question that I would not be in a position to answer from my own memory. In elaborating his question the hon. mem- ber referred to "tentative resignations". My information is that there was nothing tenta- tive about Dr. Thomson's resignation. It was a resignation submitted to the responsible minister for such action as the governor in council might see fit to take. There does not appear to be any legal requirement for such a resignation. The resignation was evidently submitted as a matter of propriety. No action with respect to the resignation was taken before the date of the "uncertain political event" to which the hon. member referred; and subsequent to that event the minister responsible recommended that, as no other person was available for appoint- ment to the post of director of P.F.R.A. with qualifications comparable with Dr. Thom- son's- Some hon. Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Knowles: Did he not recommend his son? Mr. St. Laurent: -and as Dr. Thomson was not embarking on a political career, his resignation should not be accepted. Mr. Diefenbaker: He was disembarking at that time. Mr. Rowe: Very convenient. CANADIAN NATIONAL RAILWAYS SALE OF HOTELS-PROTEcTION OF RIGHTS OF EMPLOYEES On the orders of the day: Righi Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade and Commerce): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Transport (Mr. Marler) and his parliamentary assistant, perhaps I might be permitted to answer on behalf of HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Masse the minister the question asked yesterday by the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart) which reads as follows: Can the minister give the house any information about the sale of Canadian National hotels, with particular reference to the safeguarding of the rights of the employees concerned? The management of the Canadian National Railways advise that they have accepted an offer from a Canadian syndicate headed by Mr. Walter F. Thorn, of Moose Jaw, Saskat- chewan, to purchase the Prince Arthur hotel, Port Arthur; the Prince Edward hotel, Bran- don; and two summer resorts, Minaki lodge and Pictou lodge. Some months ago an unsolicited offer was received by the railway, and subsequently the management published a series of adver- tisements inviting interested parties, par- ticularly local -community interests, to submit other offers. Only one all-inclusive offer was made, which was from the individual originally interested. Before the properties are transferred as going concerns, which will be March 1, offi- cials of the Canadian National Railways will visit Port Arthur and Brandon to interview the staffs of the hotels. The two resort hotels are, of course, serviced almost entirely by temporary em- ployees. The management advise it is the policy of the new owners to maintain the hotels' traditional high standard of service and effi- ciency. The syndicate have stated that in line with this policy a program of capital expenditures has been planned for all four hotels to begin early in 1955. With regard to the second part of the hon. member's question, the management advise that those employees eligible to exercise their seniority rights in accordance with the wage agreements will be able to transfer to other Canadian National hotels if they wish to do so. I might add that the management are making a press announcement today sub- stantially along the above lines. Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North): I should like to ask a supplementary question. Apparently some of the employees are to be permitted to transfer to other hotels. Is employment available for them in these other hotels? Mr. Howe (Port Arthur): I am simply conveying a message from my colleague the Minister of Transport. I shall be glad to refer my hon. friend's question to the minister. Mr. Knowles: May I ask a supplementary question? Was the sale of these publicly- owned hotels to private interests approved by the government? [Mr. Howe (Port Arthur).] Mr. Howe (Port Arthur): As I say, I should not be answering supplementary questions. I may say quite frankly that I do not know too much about the matter. I have no recol- lection of approval by the government. As far as I know it is within the competence of the management of the railway to undertake a transaction of this kind. Mr. Knowles: Could they sell the whole railway without consulting the government? Mr. Howe (Port Arthur): I rather think so, if they got a good price for it. SPEECH FROM THE THRONE CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON ADDRESS IN REPLY The house resumed, from Thursday, Janu- ary 13, consideration of the motion of Mr. Yves Leduc (Verdun) for an address to His Excellency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Rowe, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell. (Translation): Mr. Arthur Masse (Kamouraska): Mr. Speaker, yesterday when dealing with agri- cultural matters in my constituency, I said it was urgent that the government maintain the support of farm prices, especially as far as butter is concerned, as it is one of the main sources of income for the majority of our Quebec farmers. I also stated that because lumbering and farming are the two sources of adequate income, it is urgent and necessary that they receive the same attention from our govern- ments. I also mentioned that 75 per cent of my con- stituency is made up of wooded lots, three- quarters of which are but some 50 years old and that during the past 10 years privately- owned timber limits have been worked beyond their possibilities. I would like to say something to the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Regier) about his appreciation of the province of Quebec, my province. I listened closely to some of the things he had to say, and I read the whole of his unbecoming statement on the residents of my province. I believe I am warranted in saying that I know that pro- vince from east to west and from north to south, having travelled through it on several occasions in the course of my professional duties. When the hon. member asserts that it is ripe for communism, it is a pleasure for me to take it up and say, as an answer, that as long as no socialist party succeeds in taking root in Quebec, communism is not to be feared. I am also under the impression JANRUARY 14. 1955 that the infarmatian made available ta him. came fram certain groups of unsuccessful socia.lists who carry no weight with the authorities of my province. .Moreover, with respect ta his statement i wbich he mentioned bis meeting with two Catholic priests, I would advise bim, if apportunity offers again, ta go ta the ecclesi- ýastical authorities and ask them what tbey tbink of the people under their jurisdiction. Mr. Duf rosne: He gave no names though. Mr. Mass,: The province of Quebec, like every other province, for that matter, bas contributed ta the development and expan- sion af this nation of ours. When one is aware of the spirit af tradition in the parishes of Quebec province, where the land bas been cleared by farnilies established there for three hundred years and who bave been there ever since, settled an the property of their ancestors, it is not difficult ta understand the feelings of my fellow citizens. Wben we really understand haw these people are at- tached ta their family and their parish and how gaad their relations are with the estab- lished autharity, we need have no fear of communism. there. I arn by no means happy ta have ta make remarks such as these wbich may seern ta be a refiection upon another hon. member, but I feel it is my duty ta protest and ta defend the honaur of my constituents. I arn not particuiarly surprised by some remarks coming from members an the oppo- site side, wha would have us believe that everything is wrong witb the administration of this country. Thase are the same camn- plaints that we hear every year. I want these members ta knaw that I arn a Liberal by principle, that I believe the Liberal party bas done mare than any other for the de- velopment of Canada in the past fifty years. It was the Liberal party, headed by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, which contributed most ta the expansion af Canada, thraugh the estab- lishment of the transcontinental railway and thraugh its efforts ta unite provinces having different mental habits and speaking different languages. It was another Liberal leader, the Righ Han. Mackenzie King, who for the first time concerned bimself with the wel- fare of big families *by the adoption of f amily allowances and of the first legisiation ta better the condition of labour. And, in these days, it is not a mere resuit of circum- stances if aur Canadian econorny is under- going such extensive development. It is due ta tbe foresight of the present Prime Minister. I arn canvinced that the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe> is entitled ta bis share of credit for the rapid expansion of The Address-Mr. Diefenbaker our natural resources in general. It is be- cause this party's membership includes men who, looking ta the future, have succeeded in convincing the most brilliant graduates of aur universities ta cantribute ta the develap- ment of Canada. With a Liberal government such as we have itoday, the yauth of iny province 'and of the whole of my country can look forward ta the future with confidence, pravided they pro.perly fertilize the furrows sa finely traced for 'them. (Text) : Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker question is recognized by governmental authorities in the United States. I remember discussing this matter in 1949 with the lateMr. J. Webster, a member of the Liberal party and the member for the constituency of 'Rossland-Trail, who strongly urged the coalition government of British Columbia to conduct an investigation as a resuit of this reç4uest of the United States for the building of ,a low level dam on the Arrow lakes for storage purposes. 258 HOUSE OF The Address-Mr. Herridge I am informed that the government of British Columbia did consider the matter, but after discussing it with other bodies and receiving technical advice and so on they decided not to proceed with it as they felt it was not in the best interests of British Columbia to proceed with the proposal. I mention this to indicate that the matter has been discussed before, and I am quite sure it is only fair to say that the attitude on the part of the government at this time in relation to this question is simply the con- tinuation of an attitude that has existed throughout the years. The attitude of the Canadian section of the international joint commission is indicated in a speech by General McNaughton to the Pacific northwest trade association, delivered at Spokane, Washington, on November 2, 1953, before these proposals ever came before the house. In connection with this suggested low level dam General McNaughton had this to say: As regards the storage on the Arrow lakes which was mentioned this morning, the project is very much in the mind of our engineering board, but it ranks less in possibility of over-all benefit from a basin point of view and very much less in possible benefit to Canada and in consequence we are giving priority to the Mica project. This matter was also under discussion in the external affairs committee last session, and the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) asked General McNaughton the following question which I find in the minutes of proceedings and evidence of the external affairs committee, No. 7, dated May 12, 1954 at page 175: Q. The actual construction could not be done until you people have approved? A. No, sir. I just mention these facts because I for one am very interested in seeing that this whole question be discussed in a purely objec- tive way, since the matters being decided concerning the Columbia river are of great importance to the people of British Columbia, and are of particular importance to the people I have the honour to represent. I would like to say further that many hon. members do not recognize the fact that if it had not been for the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) turning down the request to divert Yukon waters to Skagway for the pro- duction of power for the production of alumi- num, British Columbia would not now be having the opportunity to consider the Frob- isher proposals. I think under the circumstances it is not fair to suggest that the legislation proposed in the speech from the throne with regard to the control of waters flowing across the [Mr. Herridge.] COMMONS international boundary is designed as a club with which to beat the government of British Columbia. Before leaving that argument I simply wish to say that as a result of the public interest in this question-and I intend to say quite a bit more on it at a later date-I hope there will be a meeting of minds, as General McNaughton put it on one occasion, between the government of Canada and the govern- ment of British Columbia, and that we can get together to develop the great Columbia river to our common and mutual advantage. Mr. MacDougall: Well said. Mr. Herridge: It is not usual for me to get commendation from the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard. I have said al I am going to say on this question. I do not intend to repeat the argu- ments used by the members of this group concerning the unemployment problem, but I do wish to deal briefly with a situation that is of serious concern to a number of my constituents. I, like other hon. members of this group and some other hon. members of the house, regret very much that the government has not devised and proposed an over-all and long-term plan to meet the unemployment situation. In my opinion unnecessary unem- ployment is immoral, inhuman and definitely wasteful. I cannot see under our present conditions any necessity for Canadians who are willing to work to be unemployed if all levels of government accept their responsi- bility. There again I do not like the idea of thrusting responsibility upon one govern- ment or another. On this, as on many other questions, I believe that the most satis- factory solution is going to come about as a result of co-operation among federal, pro- vincial and municipal governments. The fact that this is a serious problem is evidenced not only by the concern among members of this house but by the representa- tions that have been made to this government by responsible organizations such as the Canadian Federation of Mayors and Munici- palities, the Canadian Welfare Council, labour organizations, and many others. These are representations by people who live close to the problems. I believe that if you live in Ottawa' too long you find yourself not very close to the people or to the problems of this country. Those who live close to the problem recognize the situation as it exists from day to day. These representations indicate a growing concern on the part of those people with respect to the situation, which we view very seriously. JANUARY 17. 1955 1 am concerned over the development of a long-term, over-all public investment pro- gram which I think under present conditions, when we consider what we are spending for defence, could be financed from taxes quite easily. If the situation developed further it could be financed on the national credit of this country. It has always seemed amazing to me that during a war we can meet any financial obligation that is required to defend our country and its interests, and rightly so, but in time of peace our financial hands seem to be palsied. We stand off and say we cannot do this or that. I am quite confident that if the federal government would give a lead in this matter and devise a long-term plan to meet this problem we could do some- thing very effective toward removing any possibility of large-scale, serious unemploy- ment in the future. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters) in his place. My constituents are pleased indeed that the new federal building at Nelson is now under construction. I have seen the plans, and that building is going to be a credit to the city of Nelson and the federal government. I am very pleased that tenders have been called for the new federal building at Castle- gar, and I hope construction will be started as soon as possible. I also urge the minister to use every possi- ble means to get construction under way on the proposed federal building at Trail. We have quite a number of carpenters, mechanics, and other tradesmen unemployed in that area. The architect is now working on the plans, and I understand that is what is holding up construction. I would therefore urge the minister to do all he can to secure an early start. When it comes to unemployment I am one of those persons who like to get value for the dollar. I do not believe in handing out money when it is unnecessary. Looking around my own constituency I asked myself what I would suggest as part of a co-ordin- ated municipal, provincial, and federal employment scheme. I can speak with some experience in this regard because I have built a good many miles of highway and quite a number of small bridges, and I know some- thing about construction of that type. Certain projects could be undertaken in my constitu- ency during a period of unemployment, and discontinued when spring arrived. In that way these projects could be carried out piece- meal, year after year, to the great advantage of the district, and the unemployed. In our district we have miles of rock bluffs and narrow dangerous roads, some of which 50433-171 The Address-Mr. Herridge we have used for nearly 50 years; and they continue in that condition without serious attempts being made to improve them. We have some bluffs two or three hundred feet high at Coffee creek, Kootenay lake, which would be expensive to remove. We also have the Genelle bluffs near Trail, and the Cape Horn bluffs on the Slocan lake. Rock work is the kind of work on which you can employ a large number of men throughout the winter months, for considerable hand labour is required regardless of the compressors and other machines. In our district we have a considerable number of unemployed miners, loggers and sawmill workers, and they would provide an ideal labour force for this type of work. I would suggest that under a dominion-provin- cial scheme we could chip away at these bluffs over a period of years. As far as administration is concerned, I have gone into the whole question with a friend of mine who is an engineer, and I understand it would be a simple operation and would not require the establishment of camps, for most of the men could live in adjacent villages. After a few years, if work was undertaken on these bluffs, we would be able to travel on safe roads; but I would again emphasize that such projects could only be undertaken within the concept of a dominion-provincial plan. I have also discussed with officials the possibility of building retaining walls during winter months at the cities of Nelson and Trail. Such projects would also require a considerable amount of hand labour and thereby provide employment for quite a number of men during the winter months. On the Columbia river there is also serious danger of flooding at various places some years, and work is also necessary on the banks to prevent erosion. This has particular regard to the city of Trail, and that is another project that could be carried on from year to year whenever the situation required, if it were included in an over-all dominion- provincial plan. Al that is required, as I see it, is the will on the part of the governments concerned to get together, use our resources and plan in order to make certain that we do not have any unnecessary unemployment in this country. I am glad to see the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) in his place, for I wish to say a word or two on another matter. This govern- ment bas urged private employers to employ older people wherever possible. I believe the Department of Labour has carried out exten- sive propaganda in that connection. But this government does not practise what it HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Herridge preaches. I could give several illustrations, but I shall not take up the time of the bouse and will therefore confine myself to one case in point. This case concerns a dual-war veteran who worked as a satisfactory and efficient field officer for the Department of Veterans Affairs for six years. He was re- tired and told that they would try to fit him into some other department as soon as pos- sible. The man is able, physically fit, a pioneer in the district, and very competent. Last year he filled out an application for employment in the Nelson post office and passed both the oral and written examina- tion satisfactorily. He is an excellent book- keeper, has good handwriting, and consider- able office experience. Despite the fact that he came out on top of the list he was turned down by the depart- ment on account of his age. Here we have a case of a man turned down on grounds of age by a government which encourages the private employers of this country to employ older people as much as possible. In this connection I want to read a letter I received from Mr. Bland, chairman of the civil service commission. It reads: Dear Mr. Herridge: The Department of Labour has sent me a copy of your letter of the 3rd instant, addressed to the Minister of Labour, and of one sent to you at the same time by Mr. W. P. F. Green. The commission and its officers give sympathetie consideration to the application of older veterans. Two questions, however, arise in this connection, the first being the determination of the veteran applicant who will give the best service to the department concerned in the vacant post, and the second being that of the willingness or unwilling- ness of departmental officers to accept for employ- ment veterans whose term of employment will be relatively short. That part of the sentence, " . . . the will- ingness or unwillingness of departmental officers to accept . . .", is most intriguing, Mr. Speaker, because it was written by officers of a government which urges private em- ployers to employ older people as far as possible. The letter continues: This is largely a matter of education and per- suasion, rather than any hard and fast application of a regulation, and I can assure you that our officers are working closely with the Department of Labour in their efforts to provide useful employ- ment for qualified veterans in the older age brackets. I draw that to the minister's attention because I think it is a bit peculiar that the government, after having announced this policy, should not require its officials to carry it out when it comes to giving employment to older veterans. Mr. Blackmore: Six o'clock. Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. member wish to conclude his remarks, or call it six o'clock? rMr. Herridge.] Mr. Herridge: I will call it six o'clock, Mr. Speaker. At six o'clock the house took recess. AFTER RECESS The house resumed at eight o'clock. Mr. Herridge: Mr. Speaker, when we took recess for dinner I was bringing to the attention of the house and of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) the fact that while this government has a policy of trying to persuade private employers to employ as many older people as possible, some depart- ments were not giving effect to that policy. I read a letter which had been written to me by the chairman of the civil service commission in which he pointed out that the second reason for difficulty in applying the policy was the willingness or unwilling- ness of departmental officials to accept for employment veterans whose term of em- ployment would be relatively short. I want to protest most emphatically about the unwillingness of departmental officers to give effect to a policy that the government and the Department of Labour are urging private employers to accept. I hope there may be some remedy to this situation, and that we shall not have this buck-passing from the civil service commission to the officers of the varlous departments and back to the Minister of Labour. It is a serious situation because it means there are a good number of capable older people who could be satis- factorily employed, particularly in the lighter civil service positions, who are being denied that opportunity actually against the an- nounced policy of this government. I bave just a couple of items still to deal with, Mr. Speaker. I am making to some extent what Mr. Michael Barkway would call one of my parochial speeches, which deal with local matters, but they are of serious concern to my constituents. * I understand that the government is giv- ing consideration to the sale of certain veteran rental housing projects that have been estab- lished across Canada. One of these projects, namely the Sunningdale veterans housing project, is in my constituency. Of course, in giving consideration to the sale, they are giving consideration to the price. I have been informed by Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation that the contract price for the construction of these houses was $5,200 for a two-bedroom house and $5,800 for a three-bedroom house. I have made inquiries, and I find that the city of Trail has JÂNUARY- 17, 1955 assessed the two-bedroom. house at $1,900 and the.three-bedroom house at $2,100. Those assessnients are on the basis, of 60 per cent of replacement value. Those assessments have been approved by the provincial equali- zation board of British Columbia as being in lime with standard practice and values. The government bas had rent from. tbose bouses for somne years. They have had cer- tain 'maintenance and administrative costs. But in addition to that, the veteran pur- chasers of those homes spent, in the mai ority of cases, considerable sums in improving the grounds around the bouses, making filîs and doing landscaping, planting and so on. Some of themn have made extensive repairs and improvements to these bouses. 1 urge that the minister give consideration to ail these facts, when the sale price is being considered. I understand that Central Mortgage and H-ousing Corporation is not operated for profit. I make a strong appeal that these bouses be sold to these veterans in Canada at the net cost to the government at the time ýof the sale. I arn sure such a policy would receive the support of the maiority of the members of this bouse. The government would not; be losing a cent. They would simply be selling bouses to these veterans at tbe net cost at the time of sale. I mention this matter because some o! these veterans are somewbat disturbed at the prices they hear they might be expected to pay. For tbe life of me 1 cannot see why Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation sbould expect to make a dollar out of proi- ects such as these. I arn sure the people of Canada would be well pleased if these men receive these bouses at the cost to the government at tbe time o! sale. Before leaving this question of housîng I waiit to say that I listened to the extremely interesting speech the otber day by the bion. member for Spadina (Mr. Croîl). He usually makes an interesting and constructive speech. He dealt at some lengtb with the bousing situation. I was ratber intrigued witb the novel proposal bie made-and I say "novel" because it is new as far as the government or the members of this bouse are concernied -urging the governiment to establisb some forrn o! equity insurance for the down pay- ment *.n homes. As I understood bis re- marks it the time-and since then I bave rëad them carefuly-bis proposai would not cost this country one cent. It mîght mean certain careful administrative arrangements and somie little extra work for the depart- ment concerned, but I completely agree witb bis analysîs of the situation, wîtb bis pro- posals and witb the benefit that would accrue to the home purchaser without any cost to The 'Acdregs-Mr. Mclvoe this country. 1 Urge the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters), who is ini charge- of the housing act, to give serious consideration to this constructive and, in my, opinion, for- ward-looking proposai. I have corne to -the conclusion of my deal- ing with subi ects that have been concerned with water and land. I now corne to, the air. For years; I have been urging better facilities to improve radio reception in the northern haif of my constituency, particu- larly. For years thousands of my constitu- ents have flot had the opportunity to listen to a Canadian radio station properly, and that situation exists at the present time. If they want to listen to a radio station satis- factorily., because of the mountainous terrain and unusual circumstances and the difilcul- ties that prevail with regard to, radio trans- mission they have had to satisfy tbemselves with listening to San Francisco, Seattle or some 'Central American station. Last year two low-power relay transmnitters were estab- lished in my constituency, one at Castiegar, and one at Kaslo. I want to say that the people of the areas served by those low- power relay transmnitters are delighted with their installation. For the first tîme in their experience as residents of Kootenay West they have had the opportunity to listen to the C.B.C. fromn seven o'clock in the morning until eleven o'clock at night, and tbey enjoy it greatly. But their enjoyment bas created a great deal of interest among those who are not; now enjoying suceh radio reception. On December 20 last I addressed a meeting at which were present over 300 people fromn various points along the Arrow lakes, and they discussed this question. That meeting passed a resolu- tion urging the government to take action to bring about the installation of low-power relay stations in Kootenay West sufficient to cover the balance of the district which is at present suffering fromn poor reception. I urge the minister of the department con- cerned to give consideration to this appeal. While other people-and moon possibly the majority of the people in Canada-are enjoy- ing television, 1 have thousands of residents in my constituency wbo have neyer had the opporttunity, sinice radio was first instituted, to enjoy proper Canadian radio reception. I urge early action to correct this unnecessary and, in my opinion, most unfair situation. Mr. Danel McIvor (Fort William>: Mr. Speaker, I arn happy to have the opportunity of again saying a word as the representative of one of the finest and rnost progressive ridings in Canada. That goes without ques- tion. Like other bon. memibers. 1 congratulate HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. McIvor and welcome the new members. I have per- sonally congratulated the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. I should very much like to welcome the seven new members of the page staff. They are vital to the life of this bouse, and they are great boys. There are some things that we miss on this side of the house. For one thing, we miss the clock. The Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) tells me that there is therefore no limit on the speakers on this side of the bouse; but I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that I shall not go my 40 minutes unless something happens that has not happened previously. I say with a good deal of feeling that, as I look across at his empty seat, I miss the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew). I know the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) is doing a good job but, as I say, I miss the Leader of the Opposition. On former occasions he would sit through my speech for 30 minutes without batting an eye. Who would not appreciate that courtesy? We hope that soon, in answer to the quiet petitions of members of this house, the Leader of the Opposition will be restored to health and strength. Having read and reread the speech from the throne, may I say that in my opinion it is the best that bas been made in my short term in the house. I believe I have listened ,o 19 or 20 speeches from the throne. The present one deals with the general life of Canada better than any speech from the throne I have read. It is not in general but in particular language. After dealing first with certain outstanding questions it deals at the close of the speech with 15 pieces of legislation that will be dealt with by the house. Nobody speaking the truth dares to say that the speech from the throne is distinguished for what it does not say. It is distinguished for what it does say, and I think I can prove that. The first thing in the speech from the throne that I appreciated was the fact that a committee of the bouse is to be set up to deal with the rules and procedure of the bouse. I do not think any man needs to speak for 40 minutes, because there are so many opportunities for members who wish to speak on the various questions that come before us. In the second place, if there is some matter that is burning our insides we can put a ques- tion about it and get the information. I think 40 minutes is too long. We will have to pre- pare more thoroughly. I know that those who speak loud and long and very intelli- gently may oppose cutting down the time, but I think their better judgment will lead them to see that this is a step in the right [Mr. McIvor.] direction. I am looking forward to the report of the committee with a great deal of interest. The speech from the throne also indicates that the government is considering the needs of the blind. The age limit is to be cut to 18 years. However, when the matter comes before the house I am going to urge the house that the blind should get their pensions without a means test. Consider the man or woman who has to go through the world without sight. You cannot compensate them in any way. It is a terrible handicap. The amendment of the Unemployment Insurance Act is most welcome because we believe it will do a good deal to help those who are not working. It tells me that the government is alive to the needs of the day, which are to keep men working or if they are not working to give them enough to live on so they will have the necessities of life and a little more. In sport, Mr. Speaker, some athletes are honoured because they break records. It may be scoring a certain number of goals, it may be that a goalkeeper has so many shut-outs. it may be that a man has hit so many home runs or stolen so many bases. I think the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) has made a record in the House of Commons when he can bring in a money bill preceded by a resolution and in two days have it passed through the house and the other place. The bill to amend the Unemployment Insurance Act was introduced by way of resolution at 3 p.m. on Tuesday, January 11. The resolu- tion was passed and the bill was given first reading on that day. Second reading of the bill was moved at 3.10 p.m. on Thursday, January 13. The bill received second read- ing, went through committee and by 5.15 p.m. was passed by the bouse. Before the day ended it was not only passed by the House of Commons but had been passed by the other place. All this was done in two days. We con- gratulate the minister on this record. It will be pretty hard for any other minister to beat it. According to the speech from the throne the government is also going to deal with the needs of the veterans. Veterans allow- ances are going to be improved. For six years now I have been advocating that veterans of the first and second world wars, but particu- larly the first world war, should receive a pension at 60 years of age without a means test. I know some veterans in Fort William who are about 60 years old, and I can tel] hon. members that they could not compete with me in athletie contests because they lost so much during those years of war. One man had four Christmas dinners in the trenches. These men risked their lives. They left JANUARY 17. 1855 everything that was near and dear. Same ai them. came back, and those who dld not need no pension; they have heard their "wel dane". As long as I arn here I arn going ta press for a pension at 60 without a means test for the veterans ai these two wars. We were alsa pleased ta learn that the Colombo plan flot only continues ta be sup- parted and kept golng in the aid way but la being strengthened by a grant ai an addl- tionai million dollars. Same people believe this is not enough, but ta me a million dol- lars is a lot ai money. An add.itional million dollars will strengthen the Colombo plan. We are also assured that pensions for the bandicapped will be put into effect. This is what we expected. I know we iought for them for quite~ a while. I said in the bouse I would not support any other social legisia- tion until pensions for the handicapped were granted. Now we can support other legisia- tion along similar limes. The hon. member for Kaatenay West (Mr. Herridge) cangratulated the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croîl) on the speech he made. I congratulate hlm too. The Minister ai Public Works (Mr. Winters) knows the bon. member is right when he says that any man who invests $1,500 in a new bouse sbould not lose his investment because af adverse cir- cumstances such as sickness or unemploy- ment. I congratulate the hon. member for Spadina an his spiendidly prepared speech and the clear and concise way in which be delivered it. I know we too have a probiern at Fort William in the form ai unemployment. The local member ai the legisiature for Port Arthur, who is a Canservative but who speaks the truth because be is a sincere man and a real friend- Some hon. Members: Hear, hear. Mr. Hees: Ail Conservatives are. Mr. McIvor: -says that we have unem- playment at the lakehead but we are going ta bandie it. That is my interpretation ai his words. He says we have the greatest country on eartb, and I will give yau some reasons why his statement is true. I cangratulate hlm on coming out in the open and making thla statement. I should like ta say, though, that if anybody can find a cure for seasonai unernployment at the lakehead he deserves the highest honaur ai this country. Let us see what happens. When the lake freezes, boats cannot enter tbe harbour. The elevators close down and lay off their em- ployees. The railways lay off empioyees. There are four dredges busy there in the summer, and they lay off about 40 employees apiece. The Address-Mr. Mclvor The only thing these workers can do is ta go to the bush if they are abie to do sa. However, some men cannot go ta the bush, because they are flot fit li many ways and do flot have the experience. Sa I say if any- body can find a cure for seasonal unemploy- ment at the lakehead he wiii be a dandy. The hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) made a good speech. 1 like ta hear hlm, because I believe he speaks sincerely. I do flot say that no one else speaks sincereiy, but I llke ta hear hlm. At the close of his speech he said that this gavern- ment is very fand af admiring itself, or some- thing like that. I would tell the hon. member that they have something ta admire. We flot only think that ourselves, but 'there are those outside af Canada who congratulate Canada on its government. I should like ta say there are those ta the south af us who think we are doing a very good job. This summer the Minister af Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) was presented with the Guggen- heim medal by the American Society af Engineers because af his aid ta aviation. This is one af the highest tributes that could be paid ta a minister. When I think af Canada, there is music in the name. When I think ai Canada from east ta west, with ail its provincial govern- ments, its cities and its federal government, I arn sure we have the best governments on earth. The opposition may talk as they like, but in their own hearts they know that we have good gavernment. It is hanest. I dare any man ta stand up in this bouse or out of it and point a finger at a cabinet minister for taking one personal dollar af graft. Afier 20 years in office, Mr. Speaker, 1 feel that is a fine record. Where is there a provincial government that can match that recard? I do not believe any other dominion goverfi- ment has equalled it. Mr. Hees: Wbhat provincial government has not? Mr. Mclvor: I am not listening ta inter- ruptions. We have a great country. When 1 think af Fort William I tblnk of what aur city cauncil la doing. As I have mentioned before, we are training our youth ta become dlean, Christian citizens. The city council is daing one job and aur Sunday schools, churches and Y.M.C.A. are dolng another. We have 29 hackey and skating rinks side by side. They are supervised by a super- intendent wha likes boys. There is a bouse at each rink. When I think ai that, I admire aur city coundil and its pragress. The taxes in that city are no bigher than in any other city. Tbey are nat even as high as in Ottawa. 284 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. McIvor In the summertime we have our parks early as possible ins;tead of at the beginning board manager, Mr. Art Widnall. He has of July. We thinik dredging should be high school pupils and others who supervise started early in the spring. the children in the different parks during the I was told by a friend that Canada's danger summer, so the boys and girls are kept busy. today is fot communism and is not war. I One of the outstanding features is that we said, "Well, wbat is it?" He said it is the have so many hockey teams in these rinks breaking of the ten commandments. I have it is difficult to get individuals to supervise thought a good deal about it. I have beard them. I remember once asking a big fellow if bon. members in this bouse debate the ques- he would come out and have a look at what tion of divorce, but I bave fot yet beard we were doing. I announced there would be anyone give us a cure for divorce. The cause a practice for pee-wees, 12 years and under, of divorce is the breaking of the seventb on Thursday afternoon at 4.15. This was an commandment; therefore my friend was rigbt open air rink, and it was 15 below with a in saying the danger to Canada was the wind blowing. This big fellow, Ted Grant, breaking of the ten commandments. The a city policeman, came along, but neither he number of divorces is increasing every year. nor anybody else was cold that afternoon. Wby? Because of selfishness and the break- Today this big policeman is carrying on, and ing of the seventh commandment. he will never have less than three teams to I was in British Columbia this fali. I supervise. He supervises baseball during the know that a man who visits another province summer, and the boys are not afraid of him. and expects to assess the life in that province Of course, they will do what he says. in a week is expecting a great deal. I could I heard the leader of the C.C.F. say that not do it. When I went to Vancouver I did nothing had been done for the benefit of the certain individuals w pig ut sweep- workers from 1935 to 1938. I do not knowrewards. what was done in Rosetown-Biggar, but I A certain newspaper and the police checked know what was done in Fort William and up and found that no one bad ever received district. The then deputy ·minister of labour, a prize. and afterward the late Humphrey Mitchell, came out. The relief camps were closed and the men were put at emergency work for the tic to the Pacific is, "Buy a sweepstake ticket Canadian National and Canadian Pacific rail- and get something for notbing." What com- ways. That was a month after our election, randment does that break? The tenth and I appreciated that very much. commandment says "Thou shalt not covet." He is just trying to get something the other I should like to say a word about strikes. fellow has paid for. Therefore the danger I have been hoping that the brains of labour, to Canada today is in the breaking of the which I believe are just as good as any ten commandments. others, would co-operate with management in finding a cure for strikes. I know that Wha donwe In tda st to ork- industries in Canada are growing. When we ng conions in the w strg suggest co-operation between labour and bard for one day in seven or th wrn management and a share in the profits for man. He thone i s eeut now a the worker as a cure for strikes, we know to. oe tut do a that will not work in companies like the lowr but Ind not We he thereght Canadian National and Canadian Pacific. hor ay and he fvd wek, thore However, perhaps it could be worked out. I am convinced that if you could give the for play and eight hours for sleep, with a ful worker his present salary plus a share in day on Saturday. Yet you find those who the profits that would work splendidly. Of want to steal Sunday from the Almighty course there are those who suggest that if and make it a day of commercial sport. That you could get the golden rule put into is unpopular, and it is an unpopular thing to practice it would cure strikes, and I am advocate. It is as true as life that wben you convinced that it would. hold your commercial activities on the Fort William has some needs. In order to Sabbath day, you are breaking a moral law, cure our unemployment we think we should "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it have a breakwater in front of No. 2 and No. 1. holy." It is needed for the storage of logs and I am not going to pusb that any farther, the protection of industries. We know that the dominion government pays $33,000 for offices in Fort William, but we would like to mine says, "You have departments for war; have a federal building. We strongly wby not have a department for peace?" With advocate that dredging should be begun as respect to the breaking of the Sabbath day, [Mr. Mclver.] JANUARY 17. 193 1 woUld advise cabinet ministers whose offi- ciais put on displays on the Sabbath, that many youngmen and inaidens are leading children ta Sunday scbaol on the Sa'bbath day. I would ask them. ta refrain from put- ting on any exhibitions on the Sabbath day because you, Mr. Speaker, in leading us in prayer wiil recali that one peýtition in it is, "Lead us not into temptation." A big dispiay by any department of gaverniment on the Sabbath day does lead cbildren and aider people away. Therefore I would say ta them, "Remember the Sabbath day. ta keep it ho1y.1) I tbank you, Mr. Speaker, for your patience. There is one thing troubling me at the present time. The constituents of Fort William have treated me beyond any expectation I ever had. In fact I had a group ýcali on me the other day. They do not think as I do, but they told me that I represented everybody in the constituency. I said, "No, I do not" and I knew whom. I was taling ta. I do not represent those who treat God as a myth, or represent anything tbat that represents. I do nlot represent them and I do not dlaim ta represent them, but of course I might try ta change their minds. Thank you, Mr. Speaker., -Mr. W. G. Dinsdaie : Mr. Speaker, I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Defence Production. Has the minister been informed that commencing at noon on Thursday, January 13, the Burrard drydock in North Vancouver was shut down by a strike of electrical workers in that plant? Will the minister take steps to ascertain if an honest attempt was made by both sides to reach a settiement in the dispute before the strike was called? Perhaps I should ask this question of the Minister of Labour, but I arn d.trecting it to the Minister of Defence Production because I understand naval contracta are belng car- ried out at the yard. If the Minister of De- fence Production would rather the Minister of Labour answered it I will see that he gets a copy. Right Han. C. D. How. (Minister of Defence Production): Mr. Speaker, I think the question wouid be more properly asked of the Minister of Labour. I may say that we knew of the pending dispute and did our best to avoid a strike. I have not been in- formed of what has happened since Thursday and I arn sure the Minister of Labour is better informed. Hon. Milton F. Gregg à Mr. Speaker, I should lîke to thank the hion. gentleman for baving given me notice of this question. I have seen the press report to which his question refers but I have not had an opportunity to discuss its accuracy with Lieutenant General Simonds. If the bon. member will look at the full tenor of the article I tbink bie will see that Lieutenant General Simonds was not really advocating compulsory military training for this country at the present time. In any event the view alleged to have been expressed by bim was also expressed by him last year at Saint John, New Brunswick. In answer to a question which raised the iden- tical point referred to in this question Lieutenant General Simonds expressed the identical view indicated in the press report of bis recent speech. As a result a question was raised in this house on June 23, 1954 at whicb time the then minister of national defence, in referring to the answer given by Lieutenant General Simonds, made the following statement, as reported on page 6521 of Flansard:* H5e made a reply whîch I thlnk you could expect almost any officer to make, namely that he would [Mr. Dufresne.] be glad to see every youth in the country receive two years' military training. Mr. Camneron (Nanaimo): I have a sup- plementary question to ask the minister. In view of his answer, are we to understand that the government approves of generals on the active list making policy statements in public? Mr. Campney: I think this is stili a free country. If the hon. member will refer to the full press report I think be will find that bis reference to the making of a statement of policy for this country is mistaken. (Translation): EXTERNAL AFFAIRS ADMISSION 0F COMMUNIST CHINA To UNITED NATIONS-POSITION 0F CANADA On the orders of the day:- Mr. J. Wilfrid Dufresne : I have no answer to give to that question. (Text): POLIOMYELITIS DISTRIBUTION 0F SALK VACCINE On the orders of the day: Mr. E. G. McCullough (Moose Mountain): Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of National Health and Welfare give an assurance -that JANUARY 18, 1955 sufficient quantities of Salk polio vaccine will be'available for full use in any of the prov- inces which may require it, and would the minister further make a statement as ta the succefis of this vaccine ini the contrai af polio- myelitis? Hon.' Paul Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare): Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman gave me notice of his intention ta ask this question and I thank hlm, for so doing. As I said last year, the gavernment, in conjunction with the provinces, has taken every step to make sure that within the bounds of reasonable passibility this vaccine would be made available for the people of Canada if and when the Salk polio vaccine haël been finally assessed for value. That time has not yet been reached s0 1 cannot say anything about its final value except ta express a great hope. AIR TRANSPORT INQUIRY INTO CRASH AT cRVMLIN, ONTARIO On the orders of the day: Mr. Donald M. Fleming (Eglinton>: Mr. Speaker, I would like ta address a question ta the Minister af Transport arising out of the lamentable air crash near Crumlin airport last Friday whieh resulted in the untimely death of Mr. Rabert Saunders, chairman oi the Ontario Hydro- Electric Power Commis- sion. Has the minister loaked inta twa facts which have been reported in connection with this tragedy; the first being that there was a failure of power at the airport and no indica- tion that there were in use at that time any auxiliary or mobile lights or such otýher ~quipruent; secondly, that there was a delay af more than an hour befare the stretcher party arrived at the scene af the accident fromn the airport? Hon. George C. Marler : Mr. Speaker, I would not like ta rely an my memory cancerning the first ques- tion the hon. member has asked, but 1 shail take his question as notice and reply tomor- row. With regard ta the second part af his question I might say that I have no informa- tionwhatever on the subject. PUBLIC BUILDINGS WINNIPEG POST OFFICE-INQUIRY AS TO coNTRACT On the orders of the day: Mr. Fernand Viau (Si. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I should like ta ask twa questions of the Minister of Public Works with respect ta the Winnipeg post office. Is he now able ta table a copy of the cantract signed between Inquiries of the Ministyi the goVernment of Canada and the Founda- tion Company of Canada with reference to the construction of the Winnipeg post office and- setting out the firm price list, and also the names of the subcontractors and the price agreed between the two parties? Second, would he confirm or deny that the Founda- tion Company- of Canada made a further request for a grant beyond the fIrm price agreed upon in the fali of 1954? Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Public Works): Mr. Speaker, I was unable ta hear the second part of the question but perhaps the hon. member can informn me of it later in the day. With respect ta the fIrst question I shall be very glad ta table a copy of the con- tract which, as my han. friend knows, does not contain a list of ail the subcontractors. But I will table it in the forma in which it was written. Mr. Knowles: When wiil construction commence? [Later:1 Mr. Knowles: Mr. Speaker, 1 wonder if the Minister of Public Works heard my question which was supplementary ta the question asked by the hon. member for St. Boniface (Mr. Viau), and whether he can answer it. When will construction of the new Winnipeg post office begin? Mr. Winters: I understand that construction wlll commence in the very near future, If it has not already been put in hand. INCOME TAX DEDUCTION OF' PROVINCIAL TAX-AMENDMENT OF' INCOME TAX ACT On the orders of the day: Mr. W. M. Hamilton : Can the Prime Minister or the Min- i .ster of Finance tell us when the bull amend- ing the federal income tax law designed ta implement, the policy outined by the Prime Minister yesterday wiil be brought before this house? Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister af Finance): Mr. Speaker, I have just been looking at the orders of the day and observe that we have 18 items awaiting the conclusion of this debate. When the debate is concluded we shahl set out gavernment business in such a manner that the hon. member will have ample notice of the bull of which he speaks. tLater:] Mr. Hamilton : May I ask the Minister of Finance whether it is propased ta discuss the terms of the amend- ing bull,labout which I asked a few minuts-.c HOUSE 0F COMMONS Inquiries of the MinistrY ago, with the premier of Quebec and his advisers before it is brougbt before this house? Mr. Harris: Mr. Speaker, I think perhaps the answer is so obvious that my hion. friend could supply it. Mr. Hamniltan (Notre Darne de Grace): Mr. Speaker, might I repeat the question? Mr. Speaker: No. DIPLOMATIC INSTRUMENTS ACCESSION 0F TUE FEDERAL REPUJBLIC 0F GERMAN'Y TO NORTH ATLANTIC TREATY ORGANIZATION On the orders of the day: Mr J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Albert): Mr. Speaker, I sbould like to direct a question to the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs. On January 10 the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) placed on Hansard the protocol the approval of which will be debated here the day after tomorrow. Would the minister give con- sideration to placing either in Hansard or in Votes and Proceedings the agreement made at the four-power and nine-power confer- ences whicb preceded the agreement to wbich the protocol in question refers? Hon. Paul Martin (Acting Secrelary of State for External Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the Secre- tary of State for External Affairs spoke to me about this matter before he left today for a funeral in Toronto. He personally has no objection, subi ect to the wishes of the house, to the tabling of the relevant texts of the London and Paris agreements. In the mean- time, 1 have looked over the schedules and most of them are long and quite meaningless without reference to the Bonn convention of 1952. In expressing the minister ,s wish I would say there can be no objection to this request providing it is understood that it would not be necessary to print the entire schedules. Instead a résumé of them could be given relative to the information whicb the hon. member seeks, and that résumé could be printed in Hansard, as was done the other day. Mr. Speaker: Is it the wish of hon. mem- bers to give their opinion now as to the request made by the hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) and the suggestion made by the Acting Secretary of State for External Affairs? Perhaps we migbt take that up when the documents are tabled. I was just about to call orders of the day because no one else rose, and I rose at this time to [Mr. Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace).] ask whether the house wishes me to request unanimous consent to have these documents printed. My problem is that we are taking a decision now about documents we do flot have. I feel that later on we could revert to motions and at that time consent could be given. It would be most irregular to give consent now wben the documents are not available. [Later:] Mr. Speaker: Perhaps we might consider the request made by the Minister of National Health and Welf are (Mr. Martin) to revert to motions at this time, and ask the consent of the bouse to have the documents hie will now table printed as an appendix to Votes and Proceedings. Is that agreed? Some hon. Members: Agreed. Mr. Martin: Mr. Speaker, I table three copies, in English and in French, of the final act of the London conference, October 3rd. I would simply point out that I understand now that the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson) on January 10 tabled tbe other agreements and that the protocol itself was also tabled, so that with this tabi- ing now, ail of the documents to which my friend the bon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) directed our attention are now before the bouse and bis request is therefore in a position to be acted upon. PUBLIC SERVICE SUPERANNUATION ACT REQUEST FOR STATEMENT ON PROCLAMATION On tbe orders of the day: Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre): Can the Minister of Finance say wbetber last session's legisiation whicb amen- ded the Public Service Superannuation Act providing life insurance or death benefits for civil servants and members of tbe armed for- ces has been proclaimed and, if so, can bie say what percentage of civil servants and members of the armed forces appeared to be satisfied witb this legisiation? Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister cf Finance): Mr. Speaker, tbe section referred to bas been proclaimed. I do not recali offband the date, but it was some time in the last ten days of December, to take effect on January 1. Af ter November 1, wbich was the closing date for members to indicate their pref- erence, we found that a sufficiently large number had shown their preference in favour of the legislation that we f elt it was desirable to proclaim it as parliament had indicated earlier in the summer that it sbould be proclaimed. JANUARY 18, 1955 Mr. Macdonnell: Does the minister remem- ber the percentage? Mr. Harris: My recollection is that it was abdut 12 per cent, but I would not want to s'y that definitely at the moment. Mr. Knowles: Only 12 per cent were opposed? Mr. Harris: Twelve per cent who had indi- cated their option against it. SPEECH FROM THE THRONE cONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON ADDRESS IN REFLY The house resumed, from Monday, January 17, consideration of the motion of Mr. Yves Leduc (Verdun) for an address to His Excel- lency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Rowe, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell. Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Albert): Mr. Speaker, many will agree that in the policy of the throne speech there has been a noticeable trend towards saying less of future plans and of dwelling more on past achievements. This policy is all right for government members because they have ready-made for them a speech which can be dressed up with some slight detail; but for a member of the opposition who wants to do a conscientious job, it is not all right. He is forced to take a negative approach to the throne speech itself and consequently he falls back on this negative method of regretting that no action has been taken or of regretting that the wrong action has been taken. At the beginning of my speech I wish to apologize for this negative approach but with this trend apparent in the speech from the throne, I cannot see how any different attitude can be taken. In the maritimes generally and in Saint John in particular we find the same situation prevailing, that of loss of markets, and un- employment. I think I should be fair and generous to say that the grain shipments through Saint John have increased somewhat, but unemployment is, at the best, about the same as it was last year. But there is a dangerous trend, Mr. Speaker, towards an increase in welfare demands. To me that means that the unemployment of past years is catching up with us. I know that in Saint John this Christmas the welfare demands of the citizens were four and five times as great as those of the previous year. There is a danger that should be noted there. In approaching this important throne speech The Address-Mr. Bell debate in a constructive way, we find in the speech only vague references to regional and seasonal unemployment. There is men- tion of the commonwealth conference which is of interest to us, but nothing more is said. I am pleased that our amendment lists the loss of markets and the unemployment situa- tion first in that order. I have a long list of these so-called regrets but in picking out four or five I first would say that we regret the further loss of the United Kingdom markets. This hackneyed phrase of putting all our eggs in the one trade basket has perhaps been worn a little bit thin but one is forced to comment that it must be some basket by now. The figures on the United Kingdom market show that in the first nine months of 1954- and they are the only figures readily avail- able-British imports from Canada dropped in value to $192 million from $228 million in the same period last year. What is more note- worthy is that this decline in Canadian sales to the United Kingdom came at a time when other United Kingdom imports remained con- stant. In other words, the United Kingdom has held its own with imports from other countries-South Africa, India, New Zealand, Ceylon and so on-but their imports from Canada decreased sharply to the amount that I have shown. When the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) goes to the commonwealth conference with his contingent, surely it is not too much to ask that for the first time we take a little bit of leadership with regard to these interesting trade problems. If it is necessary to take the leadership in the matter of convertibility, in some limited way, let us do that. If it is a matter of some imperial preference, let us not be afraid to examine this matter and to push for it at the conference. I had occasion to do some research work on preferences and tariffs, and it amazed me to note that in the past history of imperial preferences, all leader- ship has been taken by the members of the commonwealth or of the empire, as it was then. There has never been any definite stand or a definite forcing of opinion by the so-called mother country in these matters. I feel strongly that we should not hesitate to take a strong stand in these two matters of convertibility and preferences. Also interesting in this connection were the statements made last year by Mr. Thomas McKittrick, who appeared before the trade relations committee of the other place, when he made the bland remark that convertibility was in the hands of Canada. That is a state- ment by one of the leading bankers of the United States, and he was throwing on our- HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Bell shoplders the responsibility of bringing Bri- tain and the United States together. This surely would be a great time for us to show that leadership which we so obviously have been hesitant to take. We also regret the increasing trend to ship Canadian produce and manufactured goods through United States ports. I have here some figures that show that there has been little decrease in the amount of produce that is being sent to the other ports of the world from Canada through the United States. The figures are still alarming and no definite trend can be indicated. The figures that are more alarming perhaps are the ones that show our protected industries-that is industries in Canada which have some degree of protection -are the ones that use these United States ports almost exclusively. The figures are as follows: Shipments Through United States Ports 1952 1953 per cent per cent Automobiles ................. 89-46 84-04 Auto parts ................... 77-61 56.54 Tires, motor vehicles, pneu- matic tire casings.......... 78-08 84-78 Farm implements and ma- chinery ..................... 82.26 80-86 Machinery, except agricul- tural machinery ........... 55-76 44-51 W hiskey ...................... 45-92 44-69 These figures are of great concern to us because Canada has invested thousands of dollars in her transport facilities and yet we have not followed through with encourage- ment of domestic and foreign trade. It is a well known fact that the United States gov- ernment is continually encouraging and advertising the use of their ports, but we seem to have fallen down in that respect. We have comparable facilities at our Cana- dian ports. Our handling is efficient, costs are supposed to be on a parity with United States rates, and yet when our ports need definite help because of economic conditions such help is not forthcoming. The govern- ment should take some definite action. It has not only a responsibility but also a definite obligation to see that these industries which are protected to a great extent should be forced in some manner to use Canadian ports for both import and export trade. There has been considerable interest by Canadian manufacturers but the time has come when the government will have to give consideration to taking some action in this regard. One suggestion that should be investigated is the possibility of having our trade commissioners authorized and instructed that in their negotiations in other countries regarding imports and exports they should [Mr. Bell.] solicit the use of Canadian ports entirely. The United States government does it. Why can we not do the same thing? We further regret that no action has been taken on the request of the provincial gov- ernment of New Brunswick with respect to hydroelectric development. The other day Mr. James Muir, president of the Royal Bank of Canada, said at the bank's annual meeting that there must be a farsighted policy to develop Canada's resources. We in New Brunswick are proud of the fact that this year we are spending $182 million on capital investment. This exceeds the figure for 1954 and is a new high, representing an increase of almost $18 million over the previous year's total of $164 million. On a percentage basis these figures indicate that our province is ahead of all other provinces in capital investment. Surely that is a good indication that we want to help ourselves. We have been able to dig up enough money on our own to lead the country. The St. Lawrence seaway is taking shape and progressing. The pipe line is moving ahead, although I would not wish to com- ment on the present position of progress in this respect. But when these all-Canadian developments are presented to us we wonder why our request for hydroelectric develop- ment cannot be considered in the same way. It was interesting to note the other day that Mr. Rand Matheson of the maritime trans- portation commission made the first note- worthy statement that I have seen on the effect of the seaway on the maritime ports. He is reported. as saying that, as business is taken inland with the development of the seaway, manufacturers and other exporters will tend to ship more during the summer months and thus decrease the winter business of the maritime ports. This situation is alarming to us and we wonder why consideration cannot be given to our appeals. This is an appeal made in a non-partisan way. The opposition members of the New Brunswick legislature have given some sort of approval. At least they have not objected. To my knowledge no New Brunswick member in the House of Com- mons has raised any objection. Their silence is a little bit alarming to me although the hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Robichaud) did comment on it the other day, and there is a non-partisan approach to the whole matter. More hydroelectric power would solve our industrial bottleneck and we could make plans for the development of our new mineral discoveries. It amused me very much JANUARY 18, 1955 to read in a newspaper the other day that Canada was permitting $3 million of its Colombo plan money to be used for hydro- electric development in India. It is quite ironical when you think that we in New Brunswick are asking for assistance with respect to our hydroelectric power develop- ment and cannot seem to get anywhere. Yet it is all right for the Canadian government to give $3 million to India to develop hydro- electric power there. This necessary assist- ance would enable us to round out our development. It would go a long way to help our economy. Of course there is the fact that the Atlantic provinces comprise a regional market of nearly two million people. In the years ahead Canadian industries in the cen- tral part of Canada would for various rea- sons such as high freight rates perhaps wish to decentralize their industries by coming to the maritimes. We would be able to offer them hydroelectric power and the regional market that is available. Surely we are not going to get a no answer to this request. In the third place we regret that in the changes and reorganization of the reserve army that took place during the past sum- mer there was gross discrimination against us. I should like to review the story briefly so far as New Brunswick is concerned, and also Nova Scotia to some extent. We have always prided ourselves on the high number of our enlistments. In the first and second world wars I think we had the highest per capita enlistment of any of the provinces of Canada. We have a background of good training and tradition in our provinces, par- ticularly in my own province with which I am a bit more familiar. Last year I put a question on the order paper asking the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Campney) the present state, classification and training position of all the reserve army units in Canada. To my mind this was the key question as far as the changes were concerned and how they should be effected. The question went to the head of the order paper, stayed there for two months and that was the end of it. I suggest that these figures would have uncovered the unmistakable fact that our New Brunswick units were in A-one shape and probably un- surpassed anywhere in Canada. What hap- pened? When the changes were made last year our three regiments, the North Shore regiment, the Carleton and York regiment and the New' Brunswick Scottish, were wiped out entirely. It was not a case of reduction or reorganization, to which we might not have had any objection. It was simply the fact that in New Brunswick and 50433-19 The Address-Mr. Bell Nova Scotia the units, as such, were com- pletely wiped out. These are the only prov- inces in Canada in which the new units were given a provincial designation. When the major-generals Letson, Kennedy and Renault came down to New Brunswick to investigate the matter, they were only there for two hours. They talked to one or two army offi- cials and gave no indication that these changes were coming. Evidently they went away without a clear picture of the facts. I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that we do not object to the changes that had to be made. We realize that some reorganization of the reserve army had to take place. We do object to the fact that our units were completely wiped out. In reply to letters that were sent, the minister said it was necessary to reduce the infantry and increase the armour. I ask the question today, where is the increase in armour in the regiments in New Brunswick? There has not been any change whatever. Again there is a touch of irony in this whole case, as was the case in my previous regret. One regiment is now to be called the First New Brunswick Regiment, so we are right back where we started in 1793 because there was a Royal New Brunswick Regiment at that time. We regret also, Mr. Speaker, the discon- tinuance of the railway lines in Albert county. There is a history connected with these lines that goes back a long way. The first reference in any act is to the Elgin line. This railway was originally partly financed by the people in the area surrounding Elgin. They were forced to buy bonds to help with this railway. When the Canadian National took it over, certain statements were made and a definite obligation was undertaken to continue this line which is so necessary to the residents of that area. The cheese factory at Elgin, the lumber and pit prop business as well as the new mineral discoveries, par- ticularly copper in this area, ail need this line of railway. The highways will not take the heavy load that the railway line can accommodate, so it is an absolute necessity that further consideration be given to any plans that are in the minds of the transport commission or the railway to tear up those tracks. Another point of interest concerns the recent discoveries in Albert county, par- ticularly of oil shale. New Brunswick has invested considerable money in a complete examination of the possibility of burning oil shale to provide electric power. A new New York firm has been approached and is in the process of doing that. I suggest it would be folly to do away with these railway HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Bell lines while the future looks so bright. While this was taking place, and while considerable opposition was building up to the loss of this line, evidently the government, in their sly little way, were toying with the idea of eliminating a further line in Albert county, the Hillsborough to Albert line. Just the other day the residents in this area were notified that there is to be a board hearing to ascertain why this line should not be removed. One goes back twenty years when there was some talk of removing the same line, but for some reason or other the government left it there. Later gypsum was discovered and it was possible to locate quite a profitable industry in the area. If this line had been abandoned the industry, of course, could not have been accommodated. Here we are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop the marshlands in Albert county in a successful way for the future, and at the same time talk of removing the railway line. What is going to happen to this investment in the marshlands? We sincerely hope, Mr. Speaker, that the government, through the Canadian National, will give every consideration to these appeals that the lines be left in their present position. We regret further that there is too much rigidity in the Post Office Department around our area. Good officials are hamstrung be- cause of the rigid requirements imposed by Ottawa. They make investigations quite thoroughly with respect to changes in the post office and carrier service, yet they are bound by the rigid requirements of the Post Office Department. The local officials fall back on the Ottawa department and their excuses, consequently bad public rela- tions exist. Personally, I can say that I have had quite a few inquiries of the Post Office Department and I must admit that prompt replies have been received. There seems to have been a betterment of the con- dition that was, so criticized during the last session. However, in the East Saint John area the people greatly desire a new post office. The surrounding district of Little River feels it is entitled to a sub-post office. The Glen Falls area has been petitioning for some time for rural mail service. I understand that all these requests have gone through the local department in the proper way and have received the approval of the local officials. Someone here at Ottawa or back in Saint John has fallen back on the rigid require- ments of the department that so much has to be given for a mail contract or a box has to be within so many yards of here or there before this mail service can be inaugurated. [Mr. Bell.] I suggest that some little discretionary power given to the local officials would not be out of the way in helping to repair the bad public relations that are building up. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I should like to develop the pattern that seems to be shaping up in our area, particularly with reference to this debate. There has been this reckless abandonment of rail lines in Albert county, which seems to be contrary to the enthusiasm engendered by our new dis- coveries; there has been this indiscriminate undermining of our traditions, traditions that only we in the maritimes really appreciate, and we do object quite seriously to this dis- crimination against our army units. Person- ally I feel that the rail lines would not have been removed nor the army units changed if they were in the central areas which have more powerful lobby groups to speak for them. Little Albert county is out of the way. Changes can be made there without too much objection. In so far as the army units are concerned, we do not have the powerful officers' messes of the Queen's Own or the Black Watch that could lobby with influential men. We feel that our regiments mean just as much as these other units, and we object very strongly to these two changes merely because of the effect politically. However, I must say in all fairness, Mr. Speaker, that it is significant to know that the loss of markets which has been affecting us for the last two or three years is now touching the whole dominion. I feel certain that when everybody becomes aroused over the matter it will help us. I feel certain also that we will not be turned down in our pleas for assistance in connection with hydroelectric power, par- ticularly in the light of the news that India is to get some help. There is a new interest in the maritimes, perhaps for the first time in recent years, with our discoveries. A new spirit seems to be developing. We feel now that by stand- ing in unity we may be able to make use of the lessons we have learned in the past. It is gratifying to note the success of the Atlantic economic council that is meeting regularly now each year. This was the dream of the late Premier Angus L. Mac- donald, and I am sure his spirit will always be alive while that council is meeting. I had occasion this past summer to make some general remarks on maritime union, and I must say for the record that I have never said anything rightly or wrongly that caused as much interest as this subject. I did not receive a word from anyone who was opposed to it; in fact everyone who spoke offered comments of a complimentary nature. JANUARY 18, 1955 It may be far removed, but surely any steps we can take in this respect will benefit all of us. I was also very much pleased the other day to hear the hon. member from Halifax (Mr. Balcom) speak about the need for regional assistance in a financial way in the maritime provinces. I believe his observa- tions were to the effect that the maritimes have a continuing problem, and that a regional agency should be set up along the lines of the industrial development bank. In any event, it is just another way of saying that we do need collective help down there, and I compliment him upon his remarks in this respect. We have had very clear indications of the government's interest in our fishing problem, and it is encouraging to know that our fish- eries-perhaps one of Canada's most unde- veloped industries-are being given some hêlp, and that research is continuing in this respect. These last few words perhaps paint a little brighter picture than those with which I began, when I mentioned those things I thought it necessary to point out. But I do feel that perhaps the government bas finally begun to take note of our traditions. We have finally got our backs up and we are going to do a little fighting for some of our new discoveries. I believe that when we see on a wall or in print the motto of Canada, which was offered by a father of confedera- tion from New Brunswick, we will not have to blush any more, because perhaps Canada will really be a nation from sea to sea. Mr. A. R. Lusby (Cumberland): Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate I should like first to add my congratulations to those which -have already been extended to the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne, upon the exceedingly able manner in which they discharged their duties. It is reassuring to the membership of the bouse when these more recent addi- tions bring with them the capacity for clear thinking and lucid expression, indicating a full sense of their responsibility as members of this Canadian parliament. I add my con- gratulations most heartily to those which have already been given to them. Then, with regard to the speech from the throne itself, as we always do, we have heard hon. members expressing a wide diversity of opinion concerning the value of the government's program which has been set out in that speech. Let me say that in my opinion the speech from the throne is a source of justifiable satisfaction to supporters of the government. When one reads it and 50433-19J The Address-Mr. Lusby hears it, and when one sees the measures there promulgated, he realizes that it re- veals and outlines a program for the session now beginning which is well timed and, while perhaps not spectacular, represents a steady advance for improvements which lead always to the greater welfare of the Canadian people. Nothing has emanated from the opposition benches to cause me to doubt the correctness of the opinion I have just expressed. We have heard of course the cry, which is so easily uttered by those who do not have to shoulder any responsibility, for lighter taxes and heav- ier expenditures. We have heard broached again--or at least hinted-the ancient and, I believe, the now thoroughly exploded doctrine that high and higher tariff walls are the panacea for all our ills. Then, from more than one source we have heard what seems to me in effect to be a complaint that it is not good that the Liberal party should have at its head a man of such high character and outstanding ability as our Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent), and that we Liberals should not take such great pride in that fact. That position, of course, is under- standable from the opposition's point of view. Then we have listened to a very consider- able amount of what I have no doubt would be deemed suitable stump material in cer- tain quarters of the country, such as the prophecy commented upon so much in the latter part of the debate as to the possible coming victory of the communists in Quebec and the socialists everywhere else. All I have to say concerning that prophecy is that it is a very well balanced one, because I think one- half of it is just as likely to be fulfilled as the other. We have heard presented the hoary and inevitable argument that no matter what beneficial measures the government may see fit to introduce, it should have gone farther and provided a little more. But, of sound and constructive criticism-and, after all, that is or should be the chief aim of opposition par- ties-it seems to me that there has been a distinct paucity. And I think this very lack is in itself a not inconsiderable tribute to the strength of the government's policies. No thinking man will suggest, of course, that everything is exactly as we should like to see it. In Canada, as everywhere else in the world, inevitably there are certain prob- lems, some of which are national and some regional, some of which are minor and others more important, which inevitably must be faced and, if possible, overcome. Speaking as one from the maritime prov- inces let me say that in that section of the HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Lusby country we always have a full share of regional problems. The hon. member for Saint John-Albert (Mr. Bell), who is also from the maritime provinces, has just con- cluded a speech in which quite properly he laid a great deal of emphasis upon the regional problems of the maritimes. I should like to say something along similar lines, although of course my approach will be differ- ent from his, and will seek to emphasize more the problems of my own constituency. For at the mention of regional problems we think of those with which the maritime prov- inces have to contend. And one thing that stands out is this, that as each year rolls around we see and the world sees unmistak- ably that Canada as a nation is advancing into a glorious future. Not all the talk from the opposition benches can seriously im.pugn the truth of that statement. But it is also unfortunately true that not all parts of the country are advancing at the same pace. We in the maritime provinces are advancing, yes, but not at the same pace as is enjoyed by others parts of the country. In the maritimes we lack a central geographical position; we lack vast hinterlands and, to a considerable degree, untouched natural resources. And when I say that, of course I have in mind the fact that great discoveries of mineral resources have been made in New Bruns- wick and to some extent in Nova Scotia. Nevertheless we do lack to a very con- siderable degree untouched natural resources. We have a lack of easy access to profitable markets. These are conditions of geography, conditions due to our situation. Nevertheless they militate against us. I think it is correct to say that every prov- ince of Canada, with the exception of the maritimes, enjoys some, and certain of them enjoy all, of the advantages which I have said we lack. Therefore, as equal partners in the great scheme of confederation, of which two of the maritime provinces are charter members, we are legitimately entitled to claim special consideration from the fed- eral government with respect to the problems which we have to face, to the end that in the advancement of this country-I refer par- ticularly to economic advancement, for in other respects socially, culturally and intel- lectually, we can hold our own without dif- ficulty-to the end, I repeat, that in the economic advancement of this country we in the maritimes shall have our place, if not in the vanguard at least within hailing dis- tance of the more fortunate provinces. I do not mean by that and I do not suggest that in a country of this size there can be absolute equality in this respect in all regions. [Mr. Lusby.] For example, I do not suggest that Nova Scotia can foreseeably hope to match in this particular, let us say, the province of Alberta where, if I might use a figure of speech, we might say that the good ship prosperity rides snugly, perhaps even smugly, in a sea of oil. I suppose some hon. gentlemen might suggest that I carry that figure of speech a little further and put Social Credit in the role of a stowaway. But I do say that much can be done and every possible step should be taken to alle- viate existing economic inequalities. This gov- ernment can perform no greater service in the interests of Canada as a whole, not merely in the interests of the maritimes, than to bend its energies and turn its resources toward the accomplishment of that end. A few days ago during the course of this debate one of the hon. members for Halifax sug- gested the possibility of close liaison between some federal agency and the newly formed economic council of the Atlantic provinces, and also suggested the desirability of en- couraging new industry in the maritimes by the greater use of the facilities of the indus- trial development bank. The hon. member for Saint John-Albert (Mr. Bell) mentioned that just a few moments ago. I heartily en- dorse the remarks of the hon. member for Halifax in that respect. I should like to add my compliments to those which have been tendered the hon. member by the hon. mem- ber for Saint John-Albert. It seems to me, as the hon. member for Halifax indicated, that in the past the efforts made to improve the economic life of the maritimes have been of too sporadie and piecemeal a character, involving perhaps the appointment of a temporary commission to consider some problem when it has become acute, but never a continuous program of research and investigation which would per- manently carry on and cover all phases of the maritime economy. I should like to see the creation or appointment of some perma- nent federal body charged with such duties, acting of course in the closest co-operation with all organizations in the maritimes hav- ing the same purposes in view, including the newly formed economic council of the At- lantic provinces. In a developing and changing country such as this, with its vast distances and great diversity of interests, it is not surprising that steps may need to be taken from time to time to ensure that adequate attention shall be given to the needs of a particular area. Perhaps I may cite as an example-I do not think it is too good a one-the fact that last year it was found desirable to effect a change JANUARY 18, 1955 in the name of the former department of resources and development which has now become the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources, marking the reorien- tation of the work of that department with increasing emphasis upon the administration of the northern territories. Although this analogy is not by any means a perfect one, I use it to stress the desirability, I think I might say the necessity, of providing some effective mechanism whereby the eco- nomic problems of the maritimes can be kept in a constant focus of attention by this govern- ment and means for their solution devised, not sporadically but as a part of a compre- hensive program ta raise the whole economy of these provinces ta a level more nearly commensurate with that enjoyed elsewhere in Canada. One of the primary points of such a program would most certainly be the promotion of greater industrial activity in the maritimes where factors which I have already mentioned militate heavily against us in that respect. In this connection let me revert to the speech from the throne and say that, of the beneficial measures thereby adumbrated, the proposed increase in unemployment benefits, already partly put into effect, has perhaps aroused the most general public interest and approval. Certainly this is true of industrial centres such as my own town of Amherst. This measure to my mind marks a further expansion of that sweeping program of social security instituted by the Liberal party and still proceeding as the continuing develop- ment and increasing wealth of the country permit. Yet, and here at last I find some common ground with opposition speakers, unemployment insurance, beneficial though it has proved, is certainly no complete answer to any problem of unemployment which may arise. Obviously the only real and complete answer is a continued high level of industrial activity. I am very far from agreeing with the belief, or apparent bellef, of some of the opposition members that the federal government, single- handed, or any other government for that matter, by a sort of waving of the wand of its magical powers, sa to speak, can permanently end unemployment. But I do suggest as one ameliorating policy, which at least to some extent lies within its powers, that the federal government, rather than promoting the further undue concentration of secondary industries in those parts of the country which are already highly industrialized, should turn its efforts toward increasing the level of indus- trial activity in the maritimes. This of course is not by any means a new proposition. It has frequently been broached The Address-Mr. Lusby that this wider distribution of industry is desirable. I think it is usually approached from the point of view that in the event of war it would be a good thing in the interests of national safety and defence. But I think, taken in the perspective of years, it would also prove a strong weapon in preventing or combating unemployment. In this free land the government cannot say to one industrialist "Build there" and to another "Build here." I never have a great deal of sympathy for those who say that the government should build an industry in that town or this town. Under our present system that is not the right approach to the problem. But we must remember that in these days the federal government exerts a very weighty and potent influence upon the industrial life of our country. It is a mighty buyer, a mighty awarder of contracts. I urge that some suit- able scheme of regional allocation of these contracts should be devised which would promote the further industrialization of the maritime provinces. I say further that it is in the national interest that this should be done. Turning again to the speech from the throne, I, like other hon. members, am deeply interested in the proposal for an expanded program of public works. As I have men- tioned before in this house, I consider the most desirable type of public works, those most to be encouraged, to be not those which only furnish employment during the stage of construction, or which may be a mere matter of pride or convenience to residents of a community or district, but those which may reasonably be expected to provide a per- manent stimulus to the whole regional economy. Such are the Canso causeway and the Yarmouth-Bar Harbor ferry, and such will be the Chignecto canal project when that long overdue project is finally undertaken. Surely in the light of present develop- ments, in the light of the St. Lawrence sea- way, the iron ore development in Labrador, maritime security in time of war and the expressed intention of the government to embark upon an expanded program of public works, no time could be more opportune for instituting a new, thorough and conclusive investigation into the feasibility and economic possibilities of this canal. At this date it is not germane to say that a commission which conducted a survey in 1931 decided against the commercial value of the canal. Condi- tions now are in no way similar to those of 25 years ago. I think the whole subject should be approached anew. A commission HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Lusby should be appointed and a thorough investi- gation made, taking into account repre- sentations from all interested areas. A final decision should then be taken as to whether the Chignecto canal is to be built. We in the maritimes firmly believe the decision would be a favourable one, but I think I may say that if, after a thorough investigation of the matter, it was decided that the canal could not be commercially justified, then the people of the maritimes would be content to accept that decision. But they are not content to allow this matter to stand year after year without any further reinvestigation into the merits of the canal. Another badly needed project which I should like to bring to the attention of the government is the establishment of a ferry service across Minas channel between Parrs- boro in my constituency and the opposite shore in Kings county. I should say the re- establishment of a ferry service; for prior to its discontinuance during the last war such a service had, I am told, been in existence in one form or another for over a century, although I suppose it was originally a sailing ship proposition. However, it is a rather stark commentary that in this year of progress, after such a long period, no such ferry operates. The provision of adequate deep water docking facilities near Parrsboro and cape Blomidon on the far shore would enable a ferry service to be maintained over a few miles of water and independently of the tides. Such facilities would eliminate an overland journey of some 150 miles. Such a ferry would, as a glance at the map of Nova Scotia and the maritimes will demonstrate, greatly expedite traffic between western Nova Scotia on the one hand and Cumberland county, Prince Edward Island, and the north shore of New Brunswick on the other. It would certainly provide a substantial impetus to the Nova Scotia tourist trade, and I believe in many ways it would be complementary to the Yarmouth-Bar Harbor ferry service which is shortly to go into effect. It seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that in this modern age any worth-while improvement in transportation facilities such as I have suggested should merit the careful considera- tion of the federal government. Indeed, the federal government has an interest in trans- portation in many ways, not least of which is its interest and support of the building of the trans-Canada highway. Therefore, with- out reservation, I would urge this govern- ment to carry out a new and comprehensive investigation of the Chignecto canal project, and ask them to provide full co-operation rMr. Lusby.] and assistance in the establishment of the Minas channel ferry service which I have mentioned. Another public works project of a different character which I also strongly commend to the attention of this government is the erec- tion of a new armoury in the town of Spring- hill which is in my constituency. For years the existing armoury in that sturdy mining community of some 8,000 people, an ancient wooden structure, not erected by the govern- ment in the first place, has been inadequate for its purposes. Now it has been officially condemned as unfit for use. No renovation or reconstruction will prove a satisfactory substitute for a new and modern building. In this connection let me add that if a community's record of patriotism and military service is to be taken into account in such a case, the town of Springhill is entitled to very high priority indeed. In both great wars the percentage of enlistments from the town was among the highest in Canada, and in the two wars 140 Springhill men fell in the armed service of their country. I would add that enlistment figures were very high in spite of the fact that a great many miners were held at their work in the mines under wartime regulations. In peacetime reserve army activities are maintained at a high level in the town, with approximately 100 men on the strength of the local company and training each week. Future interest in matters military is ensured by an efficient and enthusiastic cadet corps which has held the best standing in military district No. 6 on various occasions, and in 1950 and 1952 won the King George trophy for marksmanship-emblematic of the Can- adian championship. We need not doubt that if the need again arises the rugged miners of Springhill will pour to war as valiantly as in the past. These are things to be taken into account when consideration is being given to our re- quest for the construction of a new armoury. The present lack of a suitable armoury is a serious handicap to military training and a damper on enthusiasm. We should also bear in mind the importance of a suitable armoury as a meeting place in the social, sporting, and public life of the community. In this respect I would like to say a few words about the reorganization of militia units in the maritimes. Reorganization took place in Nova Scotia and it was with deep regret that we learned that the honourable name of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders could not be maintained, and that a military unit could not be known as such. The North Nova Scotia Highlanders had a very high JANUARY 18, 1955 and honourable tradition in the hast war, and much as we regret that the need for efficiency and economy has meant the disbanding of the unit, I do not believe it will affect the interest and enthusiasmi for military training in that area. That being the case, I say that Springhihh is fully deserv- ing of a new armoury and I urge the govern- ment to provide one as soon as possible. While on the subject of public works I shouhd hike to recommend a comprehensive survey of the docking, dredging, and other harbour and channel requirements of the various ports along the two coast hines of my constituency, Wallace, Pugwash, Northport, Advocate, Spencer's Island, Port Greville, Parrsboro, and the rest. Fishing and shipping are still important constituents in the economy of Cumberland county and deserve every reasonable encouragement. Finally, Mr. Speaker, the mention of Springhill, a coal mining town, calîs to mmnd a topic on which I wish to say a few words, for it constitutes what is perhaps the most serious problem in the Nova Scotia econo- mic picture today, that of the coal mining industry. A great deal has been said in the past in this house about the state of the coal mining industry, but I make no apology for men- tioning the subi ect again. As we enter an- other year the future of the industry remains generally sombre and choudy, particularly for the small independent producer. According to the latest report of the dominion coal board, the forecast is very much the same as before, namehy that in spite of increasing competition f rom oll and natural gas, the increase of population and expansion of indus- try in Canada wilh provide, or is expected to provide, sufficient markets by the middle sixties to enable the industry to survive, at least at its present level. This forecast, of course, does not take into account the present incalculable factor of atomic power. How- ever, from, that forecast I think we may reasonably hope that the industry is not necessarily doomed to extinction for lack of markets. But the next decade will be a critical one. It will require a continued flow of governmental assistance and co-operation to enable the industry to stagger through to better days. Not onhy in the interest of the coal-producing provinces but in the national interest as well, it is imperative that this assistance and co-operation be continued and, if necessary, expanded. We have only ta' remember that coal is still the chief source of energy in Canada, that it is still an essen- tial in time of war and that the mines, if they are once closed, will in all probability neyer reopen. The Address-Mr. Noseworthy 1 arn confident that this government will continue to play a f ull and generous part in the struggle to save the industry, as it has done in the past. What f orm. of assistance may prove most effective is flot an easy question to answer, even for experts. It may prove to lie in the realm of the development of new and commercially practicable uses for coal other than as fuel. That has always been a f avourite thesis of my own. It may be found elsewhere. The ultîmate answer will probably be a composite of many factors. I hope at a later stage of this session to be able to discuss the matter of the coail industry in much greater detail even as I hope to be able to present the needs of the farmers and of other important economic groups in my constituency. But for the present I merely wish to urge upon this house the emergent nature of the situation confronting the coal mining industry and the necessity of finding a satisfactory solution. In closing, Mr. Speaker, I just wish to re- vert to an earlier stage of my address and ta use that example to emphasize again the need for a special degree of attention by this gov- ernment to the economic problems of the maritimes. Mr. J. W. Nosewor±hy (York South): Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Cumberland (Mr. Lusby), who has just taken his seat, on the excellent balance which he maintained in his speech. He spent about two minutes in chastising the opposition groups for their failure to recognize the fact that we have the best of all possible governments today and about thirty minutes telling us of the injustices from which his part of the country is suifer- ing under that same government. Unlike many Liberals who have spoken, Mr. Speaker, I find nothing in the throne speech on which I can congratulate the gov- ernmnent. One hon. member-I think it was the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Philpott)-stated that he was doubly thrilled by this speech. Personally I find myself chilled rather than thrilled- An hon. Member: It is the weather. Mr. Naseworthy: -by the nonchalant man- ner in which the grave and serious social and economic problems of this country are completely ignored ini the speech from the throne which is now before us. For instance, there is evidence that for the next five or six months we shall be amending and con- solidating existing legîsiation. In the speech from the throne there is nothing to indicate that we are to be presented with any new legisiation designed to cope with the problems that face us today. For instance, there is to 296 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Noseworthy be no new legislation providing national add my voice in support of that suggestion. health insurance, the need for which is grow- 1 think the Liberal party is missing a grand ing and for which there is increasing national opportunity, in so far as Toronto is con- support. Of course, Mr. Speaker, we are cerned, in having failed to provide some such probably expecting too much from this gov- position for the hon. member for Spadina. ernment if we expect them to introduce any Personally, I should like to see him elevated such measure as that at a time when we are to the Senate. We might then make more two or three years from a federal election. progress in Spadina. However, Mr. Speaker, There is to be no improvement in old age we hope that some such legisiation on hous- pensions, no improvement in family allow- mg will be introduced. ances, nor any new social security measures There are facing the country today many that will redistribute the wealth that we are other problems for which no provision is producing and increase the diminishing pur- made in the speech from the throne. For chasing power of the Canadian consumers. instance, we find no provision made for the No new measures are forecast to check the employable unemployed other than the pos- diminishing net income of our rural popu- sible extension of unemployment insurance lation. At a time when bold, progressive benefits. Notwithstanding the fact again that measures-measures such as those proposed in 1945 the government placed itself on rec- by this government in their green book of ord and outlined its policy as being one of 1945-are needed to meet an unemployment providing unemployment assistance for those situation which is annually growing more who failed to benefit from the Unemployment serious, we have offered us nothing that can Insurance Act, there is no evidence that we by any stretch of even Liberal imagination are to have any application of that policy in cope with the situation. this session. We are told in the speech from It is true that at long last the government the throne that our national economy is in has yielded to the repeated requests of vet- a generally healthy condition and although erans organizations and to the annual bom- there are haîf a million or more Canadians bardment from the opposition benches. After looking for jobs that are unavailable the nation-wide protest the government has matter is dismissed in the speech from the agreed to increase veterans allowances. To throne in these words: the veterans of the country they are offering Some unemployment of a regional and seasonal a few crumbs from a rich uncle's table. There nature is being experienced. is to be no new housing legislation of such a Just how healthy is our national economy, nature as will make the securing of homes and what are some of the danger signais that possible for tens of thousands of people who can be observed today and which we should really need homes and who cannot afford to be observing if we want to keep that economy buy them under our present housing legisla- in a healthy condition? In the first place, tion, or to rent them. There are no new Mr. Speaker, it is quite evîdent that our measures whereby these people may be able national production is declining while at the to secure houses, unless perchance the hon. same time our labour force is increasing and member for Spadina (Mr. Croil) may be our technological processes are being im- close enough to the government to know what proved to the extent that it is becoming the government's intentions are but which possible to produce more goods with fewer intentions are not expressed in the speech workers every year. from the throne. If, as I hope, the speech Probably one of the best indicators of the which he made in the house the other day- level of our production is provided by the and which I may say re-echoed requests made dominion bureau of statistics report on rail- by this group a year ago that purchasers' way carloadings for the first ten months of equity in homes should be safeguarded just 1954. These months are compared with the as is safeguarded the interest of the lending first ten months of 1953, and we find that institutions-indicates that there is a pros- there is considerable indication that the pect of the government's introducing such volume of production in at least 15 major legislation this year but which they did not products dropped. These major products in- forecast in the throne speech, then we say clude fertilizers, petroleum and petroleum that we are extremely happy. We certainly products, pulpwood, lumber, grain products, are delighted to have that speech from the building products, livestock, logs and posts, hon. member for Spadina, a member so merchandise, automobiles, trucks and parts, closely associated with the cabinet that his primary iron and steel, iron ore, farm name on numerous occasions has been machinery, machinery and castings, and mentioned in connection with the post of grain. In all of these there has been a cabinet minister and other positions within considerable reduction in carload loadings in the gift of the government; and I want to the first ten months of 1954 compared with [Mr. Noseworthy.f JANUARY 18, 1955 the same months in 1953. The percentage de- creases range as follows: For automobiles a drop of 18 per cent, for primary iron and steel a drop of 21 per cent, for iron ore a drop of 23 per cent, for farm machinery 24 per cent, for machinery and castings 25 per cent, and for grain 34 per cent. The dominion bureau of statistics report on employment in certain basic industries tells much the same story. It tells the story that with unemployment growing in these basic industries to such an extent there must of necessity be a drop in production. The dominion bureau of statistics figures in their report on employment by industries indicate that in the nine month period from January to September, 1954, unemployment increased in all our major goods producing industries. It increased by 11 per cent in clothing and 11 per cent in the railroad equipment industry. In the latter industry unemployment in September, 1954, was 20 per cent higher than in September, 1953. There is an 11 per cent increase in unem- ployment in the automobile and parts indus- try, an increase of 17 per cent in textiles, 17 per cent in primary iron and steel, and 20 per cent in farm machinery. In the case of farm machinery the decline in employment over the comparable period in 1952 was 34 per cent. In the consumer durable goods industries we have, for example, in the first six months of 1954 a decline of 6 per cent in the production of refrigerators and 20 per cent in the production of washing machines. There was a drop of 16 per cent in employ- ment in aircraft plants below the peak of em- ployment in the spring of 1953, and a drop of 14 per cent in employment in shipbuilding between April and September, 1.954. When figures are available for the last three months of 1954 there is no doubt in the world but that they will show that there has been a greater increase in unemployment and a greater drop in production over the entire year than that shown by the figures for the first nine months of the year. The figures pertaining to railway carloadings and unemployment indicate a considerable decline in production in all our major goods indus- tries, particularly in industrial machinery, farm machinery, railroad equipment, aircraft, shipbuilding and consumer durable goods. A second danger signal that I think we should watch, and which should lead us to the conclusion that our economy is not in that healthy condition that the government would have us believe it is, is the drop in net farm income. As has already been pointed out in the house, 1954 was the third successive year 50433-20 The Address-Mr. Noseworthy in which net farm income dropped substan- tially. While official figures are not yet avail- able, it has been unofficially estimated that net farm income for 1954 will show a drop of $400 million. This would mean that be- tween 1951 and 1954, a period of only three years, net farm income bas dropped from $2,150 million to $1,200 million, a drop of 44 per cent. I think we should all realize, Mr. Speaker, that a drop in farm income has of course been the main reason for the depression in farm machinery plants, for the decline in the de- mand for trucks, for the dropping off of rail- way traffic and consequently the large unem- ployment in the railway equipment industry, building materials, fertilizers, fuels, etc. The relationship with respect to the drop in farm income is reflected in the drop in retail sales in the three prairie provinces which are most affected by that drop in farm income. Re- tail sales in Manitoba, Alberta, and Saskat- chewan, in the first nine months of 1954, dropped by 3 per cent, 7 per cent and 12 per cent respectively. I believe that drop in retail sales indicates the extent to which those provinces were hit by the drop in farm income. A third danger signal to which we should be paying some attention is our export posi- tion. Our export position was anything but good in 1954. Sales abroad of Canadian wheat and coarse grains from January through October were down 40 per cent from the same period in 1953. Total merchandise exports in the first ten months of the year dropped off 8 per cent in value as compared with the same period in 1953. There are also some danger signals, Mr. Speaker, indicating that a decrease in produc- tion and employment may continue, in fact is most likely to continue in 1955. We all realize that in a country such as Canada where our labour force is increasing at the rate of something over 60,000 annually, and where technological improvements are being introduced continuously, it is not good enough that our production, and consequently our national income, should remain even at the peaks which they attained in earlier years. It is essential, if we are to keep Canada prosperous, that our national income continue to increase. Some people find considerable solace in the fact that in the recession year of 1954 wages and salaries were maintained at a compara- tively high level. As a matter of fact, wages and salaries improved by 1-8 per cent in that year. But the two dynamic factors to which I have referred, that of an increasing labour 298 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Noseworthy force and improved technological processes, of course, that first of ail there are the ex- render it necessary that wages and salary must penditures for the civil service that must of keep pace with these other two factors. These necessity be limited and that must be deter- two factors render the creation of new jobs mined by the standards of efficiency which a necessity in a healthy economy. What is the government sets for itself and for its the condition today? From 1952 to 1954, employees. Government expenditures may be Canada's labour force increased by 122,000. briefly summed up as follows: first, ail cur- The rate of increase in new jobs tapered off rent expenditures for goods and services in during those years. In 1952 there were 34,300 connection with government services and new jobs created in industry. In 1953 that operations; second, transfer payments, that is dropped to 23,000, and it is estimated that in social welfare expenditures; third, capital ex- 1954 there will be a further drop to 16,200 or penditures for roads, buildings, armaments, less than half the number of new jobs that etc. As I pointed out, the flrst is of necessity were created in 1952. limited. The second can be expanded; and it Some propaganda reports, government and can be expanded in the best interests of our business propaganda, find considerable satis- national economy and of the welfare of the faction in that, notwithstanding the increased Canadian people if the government decides to unemployment, there was a slight increase in do so. And certainly there is ample oppor- wages and salaries paid in the year 1954. As tunity for an increase in the third class of I have pointed out already, the increase of government expenditures. output per man hour brought about by our These transfer payments in the form of improved technological processes, and pos- family allowances, and the like, influence sibly better management and better labour- the rise of employment, as they are converted management relations, has rendered it neces- loto consumption expenditures. Increased sary and, as a matter of fact, has made it government expenditures on capital projects possible for labour to receive an increasingly raise the levels of new investment. The larger amount in wages and salaries. The result: Since national income comprises these most significant fact is that the rate of in- two forms of expenditures, the national crease in average hourly wages dropped off income is automatically raised by an increase substantially in 1954 as compared with earlier in those expenditures. years, as a matter of fact as compared with Certainly there is nothing in the speech any year since 1946. from the tbrone to indicate that the govern- Another danger signal that should demand ment has any intention at this session of our attention is the fact that the estimates introducing measures of a nature such as for capital investment and outlays for re- were outlined in their own green book of pairs during the coming year 1955 remain at 1945, and which were then designed to meet about the same level as they were in 1954, just such a situation as faces the country or about $7,085 million. If these estimates at the present time. hold true, 1955 will be the first post-war year For example, as to the responsibility for in which capital investment has not shown the unemployed employables, let me read a an increase. Capital expenditures in 1954 were 3 per cent higher than those of the pro- few linos from the green book: vious year, 1953. Personal expenditure ingenera arrangement with theviou yer, 953 Pesona exendtur inprovincial goveroments, the dominion government consumer goods and services is estimated by now proposes to establish a practicable and com- the dominion bureau of statistics to be ap- prehensive system of assistance to ablo-bodied proximately $15.5 billion. No increase in con- omployod persons as soon as Possible, rather sume exendiureis epeced fr 155. than waiting until the need for it actually arises.sumor expenditure is expectod for 1955. If consumer expenditure per capita over I submit the need bas actually arisen the recession year 1954 is to be increased or today. Tbe government bas not made even maintained, and if there is to be no provisions in advance of that need, and the increase in capital investment by private lime bas now core wben it sbould implemont enterprise, then it becomes evident that if that policy becauso the need is now with we are to continue to increase our national us. Here is another statement: income, as is necessary, and if we are to I is thought necessary not to permit the recur- provide employment, as is necessary, then the rencc of the problems of administration being policy which the government laid down for separated from financial responsibility. and to avoid i-tself in the green book of 1945 must be the makeshift arrangements and controversy with follwed Goernentoxpndiuro, ethe onprovincial governincnts which otherwise would befollowed. Government expenditures, either onto recur under the old methods f social welfare work or on capital expenditure providing relief even though the nurber of per- projects or both, must be stepped up. We ask sons involved were small. the question, where and how can government The number of persons involved today s expenditures be increased? We all realize, no longer small. They are many, and are [Mr. Noseworthy.] JANUARY 18, 1955 increasing. And municipal councils, mayors and reeves from all over the country have been pleading with the federal government to assume responsibility in some measure for these employable unemployed. Then, one further quotation from this plan of 1945: The plan proposes acceptance of dominion responsibility for unemployed employables, and provincial and local responsibility for unemploy- ables ... And a further quotation: Payments for unemployment assistance would be made under authority of an appropriation for this purpose, out of the consolidated revenue fund, and not out of the unemployment insurance fund. Those were the policies the government presented to us in 1945, policies then designed to cope with a situation such as that facing the country today, a policy upon which the present cabinet has turned its back, and which it has repudiated. I submit this is the session of parliament when the govern- ment should review the promises it made to the country in that green book of 1945 and, in the light of present economic conditions, it should bring those policies into effect at this session. Mr. Fernand Viau (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, before coming to the substance of my remarks, as one who was congratulated about eight years ago on having moved the address in reply to the speech from the throne I wish to join with my colleagues in congratulating the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address. Listening to their speeches at the opening of the session one was led to realize that the constituents in those two ridings had elected two very distinguished members. In the light of the qualifications stated by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) as to their public service before entering the House of Commons, and keeping in mind the sub- stance of their speeches, we may rest assured that the electors of those two ridings will see that these two members are re-elected at later dates. On this occasion I do not intend to discuss what might be called the highlights of the speech from the throne. I congratulate the government upon having mentioned and bringing in at this session certain remedial measures for the development of the economy of this country, and also for having intro- duced a measure dealing with employment which will be beneficial to the labouring class in Canada. This afternoon I asked the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters) certain questions in connection with the construction of a public building in Winnipeg. I regret there 50433-201 The Address-Mr. Viau has been so much delay in starting work on this building, and that there is still delay in creating work for labour in the greater Win- nipeg area. If reports are correct, then I must express my disappointment that not only was the contract given to an eastern firm, but that the goods and supplies are to come from eastern Canada. Surely in the greater Winni- peg area of Manitoba we have responsible contracting firms whose bids or tenders could have been accepted. As yet no decision has been taken with respect to subcontracts cov- ering the bulk of the material to be used in the building, and I hope the contracting firm will see fit to invite tenders from responsible manufacturing firms in Manitoba. We have some very able firms manufacturing not only cement and steel but also electrical devices which will be required in the building. This afternoon it is my intention to address the house publicly as to what I consider abuse by certain government officials at the level of deputy minister, or its equal, in flouting certain laws of parliament, disre- garding members of parliament, and treating parliament with contempt. For the last ten years, mostly during sessions of parliament or, at times, between sessions, either by cor- respondence or by visits to this capital city requesting certain consideration, as a mem- ber of parliament I have felt injured by the treatment received from certain officials at the level of deputy minister, or its equal. The reason I am determined to make this public this afternoon is that one of these criminal injustices occurred last fall in the province of Manitoba, and I warned the deputy minister concerned that I would make it public. I am going to ask for remedial measures to be taken to correct this situation. Naturally in the 40 minutes allotted to me I will not be able to bring before this house all the injustices that have been perpetrated upon valiant, hard-working civil servants throughout this country. I shall limit my remarks, as I said a while ago, to one injus- tice which occurred in my own province of Manitoba. I contend that this situation is the result of not having a fully functioning civil service commission as laid down in the Civil Service Act which was passed years ago by this parliament. The act states that there shall be three commissioners who will hold no other office in the civil service or engage in any other employment. We have the chairman on duty as well as one other commissioner, but during the past four years the third commissioner, who represents French-speak- ing Canada, has spent more of his time- in foreign lands than in the capital city where HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Viau he should be in order to carry out his duties according to the act passed by this parlia- ment. When the Civil Service Act was passed and this commission created, the number of civil servants was not as large as it is now. The number of civil servants has reached the point where three commissioners cannot have full knowledge of the details concerning the thousands and thousands of civil servants employed by this country. So, according to the act, responsibility has been transferred to the deputy heads of the departments. The result has been the creation of this vicious circle which now exists within the civil service of this nation. It is because of this that we had this injustice which was per- petrated in Manitoba last fall. The deputy heads connive together when they do not want a certain individual, who may be ready to retire in eight or nine months, to be succeeded by his assistant. Then they make application according to the act. This may be legal, but it satisfies that lust for power which exists in the ordinary human being, and the net result is that the title and qualifications of the position are changed along with a change in the salary. But when the assistant is in a position to assume the office, what happens? He finds that he must take part in a competition because the position has been changed and his qualifications do not entitle him to succeed as the head of that branch within the department. This is not a far-fetched statement; this condition has existed. If my voice could be heard-and no doubt what I say will be noted by the press in a few days-if the crying injustices done to many civil servants could be recorded and presented to a com- mittee of this house, I am satisfied that following the action of that committee appli- cation could be made to the governor in council to remove these deputy heads who have abused their office and imposed injus- tice upon faithful civil servants throughout the country. A few years ago a vacancy occurred in Manitoba in the Post Office Department. The vacancy was advertised in the usual manner by the civil service commission, by means of a poster issued in its name by the Post Office Department. The successful candidate was not one who pleased the unelected depository of power in the Post Office Depart- ment in the capital city. What happened? A board of appeal was set up, consisting of three members. Two members of the civil service commission refused to accept the application of the protégé of this unelected [Mr. Viau.] depository of power in the Post Office Department, and the third member submitted a minority report. When this news reached the capital city a new board of appeal was created, and the third member of the previous board who had submitted a minority report and who repre- sented the Post Office Department was made the chairman. With what result? The result was that the protégé was immediately selected to fill the position of inspector for the Post Office Department, over and above the heads of more qualified civil servants in the Post Office Department in the province of Manitoba. This situation has existed for quite a while. Last fall I was duly informed that one of the post office inspectors in Manitoba, the only French-speaking inspector in the province, was to retire on March 1, 1955. He was ill last year, and it was said that because of his illness he was requested to tender his resig- nation as of December 1, 1954. Naturally I was quite concerned over whether the prin- ciple of bilingualism was going to be main- tained in the province of Manitoba. I came down to the capital city, and I was given the assurance by this unelected depository of power in the Post Office Department not only that the principle of bilingualism would be maintained, but that a competition would be held to select a qualified candidate to replace the retiring post office inspector. I returned to Winnipeg, or rather I should say to St. Boniface, and was there only a few days when I was informed by a respon- sible official that I should pay no attention to the assurances given to me by the officials of the Post Office Department in Winnipeg because on December 1 Mr. So-and-So would be appointed as inspector or, as they now call it, area superintendent. I fiew at my own expense to the capital city and appealed to the Postmaster General (Mr. Cote). I inquired if the information I had received was quite correct. His answer was "Yes. Why?" It was not that he had discovered himself that it was not possible to hold a competition or to name a bilingual candidate in the prov- ince of Manitoba, but that he had been informed by the deputy postmaster general, part of this unelected depository of power, that a regulation of the civil service commis- sion had been discovered which stipulated that when there was not 20 per cent French- speakiing or English-speaking there was no need of bilingualism in any area in this nation of ours. The figures were subnitted by the deputy postmaster general who had them all pre- pared, apparently after a long study. They JANUARY 18, 1955 could only have been obtained through researches by the bureau of statistics and the Post Office Department while the member for St. Boniface was here in the capital city seeking from responsible officials confirma- tion of the statement that there would be a competition and the principle of bilingualism would be maintained in Manitoba. The figure given was 18·54 per cent. I know my own province, and I know we have a larger number than that within the area where this postal inspector was going to work. However, I am not going to dispute the fact that we are short 1 per cent. They insisted on this 1 per cent in the Post Office Department, not because they wanted to respect the Civil Service Act, not because the regulation established by the civil service commission said not less than 20 per cent, but because of a lust for power. They wanted this principle established two years ago, and they railroaded it through in the province of Manitoba despite the civil service commission. The post office department of Manitoba will remain with only 1 per cent of French- speaking employees at the level of adminis- tration. I naturally brought this to the attention of the Postmaster General, and I was told I did not understand the regulations of the act. I was reminded of the words of the deputy postmaster general, that as long as he held office he would never appoint anyone who was mediocre, regardless of the large number of French-speaking Canadians living in the province of Manitoba. I suppose the Postmaster General meant that he would only employ those who had a super educa- tion, but for him to call French-speaking Canadians mediocre is not only an insult to them and to myself as a member of parlia- ment, but is treating this house with con- tempt, for such an attitude is directly con- trary to the provisions of the Civil Service Act. One realizes how absurd his attitude is when we recall that the government spent thousands of dollars to have a firm in Toronto investigate the operations of the Post Office Department, and found that the deputy post- master general was himself inefficient in carrying out his responsibilities. Despite the findings of that investigation that gentle- man still carries on, creating injustices such as the one I have mentioned which result in the morale of the employees of the de- partment being kept at a very low ebb. Not long ago I brought to his attention a tender which was submitted in Ottawa. If my memory serves me right the tender arrived at four o'clock on October 7, 1954, The Address-Mr. Viau and it related to a contract for over $1 mil- lion in the province of Manitoba. As a matter of fact three tenders left Manitoba at 1.20 a.m. on October 7 and arrived in Ottawa at 9.25 a.m. Two were by special delivery and one was by registered mail, but it took seven and a half hours to deliver these three tenders practically just across the street in Ottawa. One of the special de- livery letters arrived at defence production at 2.45 p.m., but the other two did not arrive until 4.11 p.m. It appears that Mr. Johnston could do nothing else but refuse the other two contracts because of the regulation. The net result of that transaction was a loss to the taxpayers of $36,000, because one of the delayed contracts carried the lowest ten- der. That money was lost to the taxpayers because of the inefficiency of the Post Office Department. So here we have an official of the government fiouting laws passed by parliament, insulting a member of parlia- ment, and being inefficient in the handling of his responsibilities. In my own province of Manitoba an official has been appointed to a position in the post office to which he is not entitled. But before dealing with that I would remind the house that not so long ago the Post Office Depart- ment, without consulting members of parlia- ment or provincial and civic officials, estab- lished what is called a zoning system in greater Winnipeg. That system will never work. It might work in cities such as Toronto, Montreal, or Winnipeg, but certainly not in the greater Winnipeg area. I opposed the introduction of this system, with the result that it is not now in effect in the constituency of St. Boniface. But as an example of just how ridiculous this can be, I have a letter here addressed to "The Postmaster, Winnipeg, 297 Des Meurons," and in brackets after that comes "St. Boniface, Winnipeg, Manitoba". We spend thousands of dollars to educate our children in geography and the civic struc- ture of this country, and here we have officials of the government flouting our beautiful his- tory by implementing a system which makes no sense whatsoever. Following the Woods-Gordon report of last July, post office officials in Ottawa advertised a promotion competition for area superinten- dents. That is the new name given to postal inspectors. This competition was confined to the' Winnipeg area. At that time a certain A. Vermander and Mr. Walker, both postal inspectors, retired, but no vacancy was cre- ated and the name of the post was changed to that of area superintendent. After Mr. Vermander was called upon to retire last fall HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Vian I was given an assurance by the deputy post- master general that there would be a com- petition covering the appointment of a bilin- gual area superintendent in Manitoba. This assurance was given after I came here at my own expense and was ridiculed by the deputy postmaster general and two of his officiais, the executive assistant and the director of administration. But on December 1, 1954, a sign in French and English was posted in every office in Manitoba with the following ultimatum to all civil servants employed by the Post Office Department. It is headed "Appeal Notice" and then comes the follow- ing: The department has approved of the following transfer without advertising a formal competition subject to no appeals being sustained. This is contrary to the Civil Service Act, which states that if there is a vacancy the deputy head of the department must advise the civil service commission, which will take the necessary measures to formally advertise a competition. But who was the successful candidate? A short time ago I mentioned a certain protégé of the deputy assistant to the Postmaster General, and he in fact was the man who was railroaded into the position over the heads of fully qualified members of the civil service in the province of Manitoba. The man who was appointed area superintendent for Winnipeg without a formal competition was Mr. R. J. Emerson. This was done contrary to the act. It denied the French-speaking population of Manitoba the right of employ- ment, and also denied the rights of highly qualified personnel employed in that area. All I can do now, Mr. Speaker, is to ask the government of Canada to see that the civil service commission acts in accordance with the regulations of the Civil Service Act. The Postmaster General, his deputy or the civil service commission should be called upon to remove Mr. Emerson from office immediately and to advertise a competition for a bilingual area superintendent for Winnipeg. The com- petition should then be carried out in accord- ance with the act. We have the qualified per- sonnel, and it is high time some of the min- isters of this government inquired closely into the actions of some of their deputies, particularly when it comes to an appointment of the kind I have mentioned. Action should be taken when an injustice has been done and when a member of parliament brings that privately to the minister's attention, for it will then be possible to handle the matter without the necessity of a member of parlia- ment having to make the matter public as I have now done. [Mr. Viau.] Mr. W. G. Blair (Lanark): Mr. Speaker, I first wish to add my word of congratulation to the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. They are both young members. Not only did they speak well but their material was well prepared. In so far as the speech from the throne is concerned, I was disappointed that mention was not made of matters which I consider to be of urgent importance. I was glad to see that some measure was to be introduced to deal with war veterans allowances. I feel that such a measure is overdue. I can never agree with the sta.tement made by one hon. member to the effect that he did not believe men had aged prematurely ten years in the war. I think it is a well-established fact that the men of the first war particularly aged prematurely at least ten years in their period of service. There is no special yardstick by which the effect can be diagnosed, but many of these veterans with excellent service are in need of higher payments owing to the present cost of living and the cost of main- taining their homes. This debate on the address is of value to this house because it gives members an op- portunity to present to parliament conditions in their own ridings, and as well to call the attention of parliament to the position of the country as a whole. I cannot be accused in any way of talking blue ruin in this country because I do not believe this to be a fact, for the future of Canada is possibly brighter than that of any other country on the globe. Canada covers 3,695,000 square miles and has 13,000 miles of coast line on the great lakes and the seas. The territory of Canada is about the same size as that of Europe and larger than that of the United States. There are 300 million acres of arable land in Canada, and of that 300 million acres only about half are cultivated. The surface has only been scratched of our vast mineral resources. Industry has grown, and in 73 years the value of manufactured goods has made progress from a few million to more than $5 billion. It is true that there are matters of urgent importance affecting this country. We find marked unemployment, falling markets and an unfortunate economic balance in agricul- ture where the price received by the farmers for their commodities is going down and the farmer finds himself faced with the present high cost of consumer goods which he finds it necessary to buy. Much credit has been taken by this gov- ernment in past years and even up to the present time with regard to the growth and JANUARY 18, 1955 the prosperity of Canada. My faith in Can- ada is so great that, in spite of adverse conditions, I believe Canada will still grow and will still prosper. I am reminded of the statement made years ago by that delightful figure in the world of entertainment, Will Rogers. He was not only an entertainer but also a philosopher. Once, when discussing the political situation in the United States- that of Democrats versus Republicans-he made a statement that I think could be well taken to heart by those who argue blue ruin. He said, "This country is too big to be destroyed by any political party". I wish to present to you today the position of the agriculturalists and more particularly that of the dairy farmers, not only in my own riding but in the whole of the dominion. I find that there is considerable misunder- standing with regard to the difficulties faced by this great industry, especially on the part of those who are not actively engaged in the industry itself. The county of Lanark bas been recognized for years as an important centre in the dairy industry, and over the years it has been especially noted for its production of cheddar cheese manufactured both for export and for domestic consumption. It should be appreciated that dairy farming is an occupation which requires many. hours of hard work. It is not merely a matter of a six-day week. Even on Sundays cows must be milked and cared for, and milk must be prepared and cooled in order that it may reach market on Monday in good condition. Not only is there this consideration, but in order to build up a good dairy herd and secure high production, there must be constant care and supervision. Any dairy farmer can tell you that it is an expensive proposition for him during the years when he builds up a good dairy herd. There is also the cost of maintaining equipment such as silos and barns. Of late years the cost of labour bas been so high that it is a factor which must be taken into account in the cost of production. As an industry, dairying is one of the most important in Canada. It is not generally realized that 450,000 farmers depend upon the dairy industry as their source of income. Indirectly two million Canadians derive part or all of their income from this source. That includes those engaged in production, distri- bution, processing and supplying various serv- ices and equipment. It contributes more than $600 million to our national commerce. Food, of course, is the main product, and this includes butter, cheese, cream, bottled milk, powdered milk and many other types of food provided by dairy herds. I mention these facts in order to bring before this house and the public the importance of this industry. The Address-Mr. Blair Last November the bureau of statistics showed a drop in the cost of living index, and it was to be noted that the lower figure was accounted for by food prices. This figure would have been considerably lower were it not for the fact that the cost of other com- modities showed a rise or remained at their former figures. In plain language, the drop in the cost of living was due to the farmer. Reports at the end of the year showed that the drop in farm income in 1954 amounted to 13 per cent. To one section of our population this was a pleasant thing, because cheaper farm commodities meant cheaper food. But there is something more serious which has been generally disregarded by a large portion of the public, namely the drop in farmn income; and the drop in general food prices has had much to do with the jobs of ordinary Canadians. We are hearing all sorts of reasons, even in this house, as the causes of unemployment. It has been called seasonal, and even the weather has been blamed. But everybody who talks about it apparently avoids the obvious explanation. One reason is plainly outstanding. Far too many farmers have not available the cash with which to buy manu- factured goods, nor have they the cash when it is necessary to employ labour themselves. We must remember that the 450,000 dairy farmers, together with their families and all the people who are connected with the dairy trade, consume large quantities of manufac- tured goods. We cannot afford to have the income of that large group of people so reduced that their buying power will be impaired. The buying power of the farmers is required in connection with goods manufactured by Canadian industry, by Canadian labour. When the buying power of the farmers becomes impaired-and let us remember that there are several hundred thousand farmers-there is a slow-down of our industrial economy, and we have the kind of unemployment that we are experiencing in Canadian business today. Under present conditions in Canada it is an excellent thing to be able to obtain cheap food. I repeat that the drop in our con- sumer price index, or the cost of living record, is mainly due to the fact that there has been a drop in the price of food. In this connec- tion it is well to remember that cheaper food is related to jobs; I refer to jobs of people employed in industry and manufacture. There is little good in the saving of a few cents on the cost of a spread for bread, or a pound of processed cheese, if the result is going to be that more Canadians are thrown out of jobs. Let me again emphasize the fact that in this case food costs are related to jobs. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Blair The average farm family buys about four times as much goods of every description as does the average urban family. The farmer buys not only the necessities for his household but, in addition, buys largely the products of industry in the nature of farm imple- ments and various types of goods or machin- ery which he uses in his work on the farm. When the farmer makes less money he does not buy, and the people who are employed in other industries, who live and are consumers in urban centres, should remember that when they demand cheaper food they are, without thinking, contributing to unemployment within their own country. I do not blame people for wishing to buy their food more cheaply. This is only natural with the present high cost of living, but one must take a broad and long-term view of the matter. I now come to the question of the impor- tation of New Zealand cheese. There is an old saw about carrying coals to Newcastle, and this is about the most surprising deal one could imagine. In Canada we have cheese to give away and now more of it is being hauled thousands of miles across the Pacific, adding to the confusion. There bas been some mystery about this deal, because it is extremely difficult under the circumstances to find why such a deal was ever made. Under the deal 2,250,000 pounds of New Zea- land cheese are being imported into Canada at a time when about 10 million pounds more cheese is reported in Canada than there was a year ago. If an importer can bring in New Zealand cheese, this takes the props from under any Canadian dairy product. Further, if what the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) says means un- restricted imports of cheese and powdered and processed milk, then within six months Canadian products will be at the world price, which is approximately $2 a hundred for milk. It may be argued that this New Zealand cheese is only one shipment, is not likely to be repeated, and is not a matter of great moment. The Minister of Trade and Com- merce stated in the house a few days ago that no further imports of New Zealand cheese are expected for six or nine months. Apparently a verbal agreement was made in 1952 whereby New Zealand agreed not to send cheese to Canada for the reason that Canadian producers were having difficulty in selling to the British market. The Ontario cheese producers' association has been work- ing, at considerable expense to the organiza- tion, to stabilize this department of the dairy industry of the country. In fact it has raised over a million dollars for the purpose of exporting Canada's surplus. Now the cheese [Mr. Blair.] producers find that the market is completely disorganized, and it was already in a difficult position. The statement made by the Minister of Trade and Commerce in the house on January 10 has added to the confusion, as it appears that the way is left open for unrestricted imports of dairy products from New Zealand. It has placed the cheese producers of Ontario in a very precarious position. Under difficult circumstances they have been doing an unu- sually fine job in marketing their products. They have a marketing scheme, and they are a thriving organization. But at the same time they have incurred large debts, and they have a large stock of cheese on hand. The organization was built up largely with the blessing of the federal and Ontario gov- ernments. Under existing legislation the fed- eral government guaranteed them 24 cents a pound. The Ontario government gave them other guarantees. The cheese producers have built a large warehouse at Belleville and have another under construction at Win- chester. This has been done by means of Ontario government loans. These warehouses were built to facilitate the handling and proper storage of cheese. The federal Depart- ment of Agriculture has been close to their activities, and with the full knowledge of that department the cheese producers have deducted two cents on every pound of cheese produced in 1954 to bonus or subsidize their exports to the United Kingdom. By the use of the funds thus created they have exported over 4 million pounds of cheese to the United Kingdom. I received a letter a few days ago from the patrons of a cheese factory in my own area pointing out that from cheese sales totalling $59,881, they had paid $3,883 to the fund to stabilize the price of cheese. The fund was built up at the rate of two cents a pound on cheese, which was equal to 17 cents on every hundred pounds of milk. One must admit that this was a very high con- tribution in order to build up their industry and retain markets. The cheese producers now hold and own 10ï million pounds of cheese, which would require $2,853,000 to liquidate it at 274 cents a pound. At the same time they owe the banks on guaranteed loans over $3,300,000. One must admire these producers for their confidence in the industry to date, because they were in busi- ness to help themselves with the full knowl- edge and apparently the blessing of the federal Department of Agriculture. Unfortunately they received no advance warning of this New Zealand shipment, al- though details must have been known to JANUARY 18, 1955 persons in Canada some months ago. Because the federal and Ontario governments have given encouragement and guarantees, both these governments have a stake in the cheese stocks which are now held by the producers' own organization. Even the threat of further imports could force down domestic cheese prices. Then both governments would lose considerable amounts of money. The cheese marketing scheme apparently has been work- ing well and satisfactorily, but buyers will have lost confidence. There is about 10 million pounds more of cheese reported in Canada today than there was a year ago. Let us assume that this is sur- plus to our needs, so that an export policy is needed to get it moving abroad. The importation of cheese from New Zealand was completely unnecessary, and it now makes the job of selling Canadian cheese more dif- ficult. The smaller traders will be doubtful for some time about buying in quantity. No doubt an argument will be made that the 21 million pounds represented by the New Zea- land importation will cost the firm finally receiving it more than the world price, and that it will give them no great advantage in the price field. It was rumoured that this cheese was sold by the New Zealand dairy board in Halifax, off ship, at a considerable premium over the price received by the same board from the United Kingdom, and that the cost to the final buyer will be around 27 cents. The prevailing price of Ontario cheese for domestic buyers has been around 30 cents for the past year, and somewhat less for Quebec cheese. The home price in New Zea- land for cheese shipped to the United King- dom really amounts to about 21J cents in Canadian funds. If the threat of further New Zealand cheese imports is held over the head of the Canadian industry, it is not very diffi- cult to see the implications involved therein. Canadian milk producers, at world prices for dairy products, would receive less than $2 a hundredweight for milk at the farm. No matter what the cost of milk produc- tion is in other countries, we must be fully aware of the fact that it cannot be produced for any such amount in Canada. No farmer can keep ten to twelve dairy cattle on a farm for a day, feeding them and milking them, for $2. It just cannot be done in this country, where our whole milk producers get over $4 per hundredweight. Unemployment is now a big issue in Can- ada. It is so big an issue, in fact, that a spe- cial bill was introduced into parliament for consideration not very long ago. There is no reason to look any further for causes of un- employment. One of the reasons stares us in The Address-Mr. Blair the face. Over two million Canadians have less money to spend and they are buying fewer automobiles, sewing machines, tractors, farm implements and trucks. Fewer men are required to make these machines. This in large part is the story of unemployment. The importation of 2J million pounds of New Zealand cheese may have enabled some Canadian manufacturer to sell some products to our sister dominion. In the long run many more might have been sold right here in Canada to Canadian farmers if the latter had the money with which to buy them. The entire dairy industry is carrying on under the competition of cheap imports in the various forms of edible oils which are coming here from other countries, especially the United States. I mention this fact be- cause it is one of the difficulties the dairy farmers are facing today. With the addition of these shipments of cheese from New Zea- land, the position of the dairy farmers is going to be extremely difficult. Some of the areas from which edible oils are obtained have a very low standard of living. Wages are only a fraction of those paid in this country. The duty on these edible oils is either small or non-existent. I point out that Canadian farmers are asked to com- pete with a product exported from countries with the lowest wage rates in the world. No other industry in Canada would stand for such competition. Other Canadian farmers outside the dairy industry are beginning to realize their posi- tion. A few weeks ago the soybean growers of western Ontario appeared before a dairy convention in Toronto and the annual meet- ing of the Ontario federation, asking these bodies to work with them to secure protec- tion against cheap imports. In the face of public demand for cheap consumer goods, one must realize again the importance of maintaining the dairy industry, composed of 450,000 farmers, and of maintaining the buy- ing power of the two million people who con- tribute in some way to this great industry. There has been a considerable decline in our exports during the past year. Canada is losing markets to which she formerly exported agricultural products such as milk, milk powder, cheese and pork. There is a general tendency to say, and I quote the words, "Canadian farmers cannot compete in world markets due to high prices." This may be true, but it creates an entirely wrong impression. It gives the impression that farmers have raised their prices to such a degree they are unable to compete with farmers in other countries. It also gives the impression that if farmers would only reduce their prices they could sell more abroad. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Blair The truth is that not only farmers but other Canadian producers find themselves being priced out of world markets. If all other things were equal farmers would be glad to cut their prices so they could export, provided they would not be expected to do all the cutting. Farmers and manufacturers in other countries can sell for less in the world markets because their costs are less, wages are lower and the standard of living is lower. Canadian farmers have made a substantial contribution, but this has been offset by high processing and handling charges. Canadian consumers are not receiv- ing the full benefits of lower farm prices, because costs over which the farmer has no control have risen. Turning to another subject, I may say that I was interested in a speech made by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris) in Montreal in November. He indicated in that speech that he found taxes in Canada pretty high- those were his words-and he was amazed that Canadian citizens put up with them. I enjoyed hearing someone in the government say this, especially the Minister of Finance. Evidently the minister is aware of the bur- den on industry and the people in general. There is no doubt about the requirements for defence and general maintenance, and allowance must be made for increased serv- ices. But if our industries are going to suc- ceed in a competitive market there must be a cutting down of costs. This must start with a real program of economy within the government. I suggest to the Minister of Finance that it is true of human nature that where a person has been living high, with almost unlimited money to spend, it is some- times difficult to learn how to restrict unnecessary spending. I suggest that in this connection study should be given to the report of the Auditor General. There has been a great deal of discussion on the matter of cutting costs in order that we may export, and a tendency to blame various groups or sections of our people. It is sometimes difficult for any one group to make the first move because of the cost of living. Hardship is always involved if the balance between income and the cost of living is disturbed. The workers in any industry wage a continuous struggle to maintain the balance between wages and the cost of living. Our great neighbour to the south, the United States, is almost self-contained. They have a domestic market of 160 million people. There is complete interchangeability of goods among the 48 states. Again I cannot help but point out that our doinestic market is only 15 million people. This brings up the ques- tion of the importance of immigration, and ÇMr. Blair.] the building up of our population as a long- term plan cannot be overemphasized. If we doubled our population that would give us a domestic market which would absorb more and more of our industrial products, including agricultural products. The development of our natural resources would mean many more workers, more buyers of domestic consumer goods and a greatly increased domestic mar- ket. It therefore follows that in such a long-term program of development there would be more employment for Canadian workers. Certain factors must be taken into con- sideration in meeting competition. Taxes add to the cost of production and place our industries at an unfair disadvantage. When industry suffers in this way, unemployment is created. Industrial growth is hampered by high corporation taxes. Increased con- sumer buying power stimulates industrial expansion, and in turn creates more jobs. Steps taken toward lowering taxes would decrease production costs and help our in- dustries to meet competition, not only in the domestic field but in the export markets as well. I regret, Mr. Speaker, that there is no men- tion of economy in the speech from the throne. Every year the government says the Canadian taxpayer must produce more money. Taxes can defeat their own ends. If the tax levy is at too high a rate, production and expansion in industry are decreased and in the end the tax will produce less revenue than a somewhat lower rate. A corporation tax of 49 per cent would leave little room for industrial expansion, cutting of costs, and hence ability to meet foreign competition. I am fully aware of the difficulties involved in world trading today, but again I point out that under present conditions we can- not afford to sacrifice the great Canadian dairy industry. The international tension that exists today makes it necessary, for our own preservation, that we maintain this important industry as part of our program of preparedness. The farm implement industry now has marked unemployment. In this connection I wish to briefly discuss the Colombo plan. Canada has voted $100 million to help the economic development of south and south- east Asia, and to help raise the standard of living of the 570 million people in that area. The Department of External Affairs, in dis- cussing the Colombo plan, has stated: India's food problem is tremendous. There is never enough food produced in India to feed the population at even the minimum standard to which they are accustomed. JANUARY le. 1955 The shartage of faod amaunts ta five mil- lion tons. Accarding ta the same statement the government of India seems ta be f ully aware of the desperate need ta close this gap, and its five-year development plan con- centrates an increased agricultural produc- tion. We are told that India devotes 17 -5 per cent of investment capital ta the imprave- ment and extension of agriculture, and 21 per cent ta irrigation. It wauld seem that it is India's palicy ta graw more food for her people. Apparently it is left ta the country receiv- ing the help under the Colombo plan ta decide how the money shauld be expended. If the palîcy af India is ta graw more food it will mean bringing mare land under culti- vatian and improving the farming methods on the new land as well as the areas already u.nder crop. The impravement; could be car- ried out in some ways by using certain types of Canadian farm machînery. 0f the $51 million Canada sent ta aid India, we find that none of the money has been spent an farm machinery. Pakistan and Cey- Ion received the remaining $48 million, and of that sum only $200,000 has been spent on farm machinery. Canada sent ta India locomotives, electrical equipment, bailers and the like, but no plows, tractors or other farm implements. It would seem that in India, which is concen- fratîng on increasing the production of food- stuifs and has reclaîmed twa million acres of land, added ta anather eight million acres which were brought under irrigation., it is poor policy ta continue working on land by primitive methads which in years gone by have neyer yielded adequate crops. I am aware of the difficulty in teaching these new methods as apposed ta the ancient methods in same of those countries; but if sufficient food is ta be grown then new methods will have ta be adopted. In view of the fact that the farm implement industry in Canada is gaing thraugh a difficult period fram lack of orders, I suggest that measures be taken ta increase the shipment of those cammodities ta such cauntries as India which are receiving help under the Colombo plan. Certainly $200,000 warth af implements is a very small proportion of the $100 million Canada has already expended. I believe expenditures under the Colombo plan repre- sen 't money well spent, and will bring excel- lent results. But as I have suggested, it would help the farm implement industry in Canada if a due proportion of Canada's expenditures were ta cansist of agricultural implements. Mr. F. A. Enfield (York-Scarborough): Mr. Speaker, I am always very favaurably im- pressed by the high level ot debate and the The Address-Mr. Enfield effective presentations one hears in the house, ta the point where sometimes I arn a littie diffident about making my own contribution. I wish particularly, however, to congratulate the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply. The hon. member for Verdun made a most eloquent presentation. This is understandable in one who cornes from a province where fine speakers and great arators are the order of the day. And most certainly one must take justifiable pride in the clear, concise and com- prehensive remarks of one's dloser associate from the Toronto area, the hon. member for Trinity. It is understandable that many hon. mem- bers are most concerned about the unemploy- ment situation. I think we ail feel that, 50 long as one person who wants work is unable ta find it, for him the distress is great indeed. During the past two years we have seen a change in economic conditions on a world- wide scale. Competition has increased greatly in the selling field in ail parts of the world, .particularly with the ecanomic come-back of the European countries, including Germany and Great Britain. We have witnessed a change from a wartime economy, with de- fence expenditures predominant, to a peace- time economy and certainly to a more normal period'of economic growth and change. This change has been followed with same anxiety and certainly with a great deal af interest by the investor, the businessman and the warker. Fortunately there has been na great ecana- mic upheaval, although there has been some economic upset. We see a residue of unem- ployment now resulting in Canada. The latest figures I have from the dominion bureau of statistics indicate that on November 30 of last year 214,000 persans were out of work and seeking emplayment. This was the total in a labour force of 5,417,000 workers, or a littie more than 3J per cent of the total labour force. Without wishing ta minimize the seriousness of unemployment generally I should like ta draw a camparisan between the monthly unemployment figures of the years 1953 and 1954, ta show the increase per month during that time. For example, in March 1953 there were 172,000 persans seeking employment and in the carresponding month of 1954 there were 318,000, or an increase of 146,000. In April of 1953 we find the figure ta be 165,000 and in 1954 ta be 303,000, or a slightly smaller increase of 138,000. For May of 1953 the figure was 114,000, and in 1954 it was 217,000, or an increase of 103,000. In June, July and August the increase per month was 95,000, 82,000 and 83,000, respectively. The same proportions applied for September, but in HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Enfield October the increase had dropped to 68,000 and in November the increase over the corre- sponding month in the previous year had dropped to 63,000. I know the argument will be offered that one can do anything with figures, but I do suggest that they indicate a strong trend. The prob- lem is serious, but it was not as serious at the end of that period, namely in November of 1954, as it was in March of that year. And I think we have good reason to hope that this trend will continue. I do not share the view of the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) and the hon. member for Hamil- ton West (Mrs. Fairclough) who felt that unemployment would continue to increase to a point where we would have about 600,000 unemployed before the close of the winter months. If the trend I have indicated con- tinues I feel the situation at that time will be somewhat less serious than it was last winter. In Toronto we are very fortunate in this respect. In a recent issue of the Globe and Mail there is a comment by an official of the unemployment insurance commission to the effect that there is the equivalent of a little more than one person unemployed for every 28 employed in that city. We know that unemployment figures vary from municipality to municipality and from area to area, and that the unemployment situation is most serious in some areas. I do feel that in those places the intelligent allocation of public works and projects is most important to alleviate local situations. While I am on this subject I will point out that an awkward problem does exist in con- nection with the relief of the employable unemployed. I know the federal government has been charged with complete responsibility for these persons. The statement is made that in the green book, which is the record of the dominion-provincial conference of 1945 and 1946, the dominion government made certain proposals in this connection. I would point out, however, that when an offer is made it does not constitute a binding contract until such offer has been accepted. At that time, as we know, the two largest and richest prov- inces did not accept the offer. Ontario entered into a separate tax agreement in 1948, and Quebec has not as yet entered into any agree- ment. Therefore the legal responsibility still rests, of course, with the provinces for the relief of the employable unemployed. It is true that we have taken on the task of providing an unemployment insurance act. Many people feel that because we have done so we should assume complete responsibility for unemployment. From a practical point of view it might be better to administer [Mr. Enfield.] this type of thing by one government and with one administration. Perhaps that is the only really businesslike way in which the matter can be handled. But you cannot take on a financial responsibility which by virtue of the constitution rests upon the provinces unless you enter into some agreement with them to safeguard yourself at the time you take over. When a dominion-provincial conference is held in the future I feel that this question should be placed high on the agenda, and it should be decided definitely where the responsibility will lie. When we look at the third quarter of 1954 and the beginning of 1955 we see a feeling of buoyancy and optimism expressed by our business leaders, by our newspaper columnists and commentators. Despite the unemploy- ment I feel I have caught some of that feeling of buoyancy and optimism. I think as a federal government we should do all we can to foster an optimistic outlook. One of the strongest pillars of employment, in metropolitan Toronto in any event, has been our housing program. The government must feel most gratified indeed at the un- qualified success of the National Housing Act over the past year. We know that on the national level in 1953 some $280 million was invested in National Housing Act loans. For the first nine months of 1954 that figure had increased to $418 million, nearly twice as much for just the first nine months of that year. It showed a tremendous increase. In the Toronto area some 7,500 homes were built under National Housing Act auspices in 1953. In the first nine months of 1954 that figure had doubled, to 15,000. The manager of the local office of Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation in Scarborough tells me that over 60 per cent of all National Housing Act homes built in metropolitan Toronto were constructed in that township. I am quite proud of that. Over 7,000 homes were con- structed during the year in Scarborough, which is certainly most gratifying. The building of homes has a tremendous impact upon our economy in the way of providing employment and an outlet for investment. In this connection I should like to quote from a speech delivered by the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Winters) to the Electrical club in Montreal on December 1 last. The minister said: By the end of the year Canadians will have spent about $1,250,000,000 on new housing during 1954 alone. This is 5 per cent of our gross national product. This program means expenditures on materials of over $680 million, and employment for a labour force of an average of about 100,000 men for a full year on site alone. We are all anxious to keep the housing program or housing boom-I think I can use JANUARY 18, 1955 that word-continuing at its present level, if not increasing. We must look at some of the problems involved in this situation. If we are to bring housing into a more effec- tive field of demand where it will be pro- gressively necessary to build more houses, then the price of housing must be brought within the reach of the average income groups. One of the largest items of cost in con- nection with housing, at least in the metro- politan Toronto area, is the cost of serviced land. Municipalities hesitate to impose in- creasingly heavy tax burdens on the tax- payers in these communities. The largest single item of cost to the community is that of providing schools. I noticed in the Janu- ary 7 issue of the Toronto Daily Star that the township of North York, a great part of which is in my riding, has a program for schools that will cost more than that of any municipality in the country. The cost of education falls directly upon the home owners. In my riding this accounts for 50 per cent, or in some cases 60 per cent, of the real estate tax bill. This is really a crippling proportion. As I say, municipal councils hesitate to embark upon new hous- ing projects if this taxation has to be in- creased. We are often requested as a federal govern- ment to contribute toward the cost of edu- cation. Under sections 91 and 92 of the British North America Act, which allocate powers to the provinces and the dominion, we do not have jurisdiction to interfere with or to make direct contributions toward ele- mentary schooling, or toward secondary schooling for that matter. We have made con- tributions to the universities which have been accepted and administered by the provinces. I think in a future dominion- provincial conference the question of federal contributions toward education might be use- fully dealt with. We could confer a direct benefit upon municipalities by allowing real estate taxes to be deducted from net taxable income for income tax purposes. I realize that this is not the first time this has been suggested in the house. On checking Hansard I notice that the former member for York West, the late Rodney Adamson, at one time made this very suggestion. There may be more equi- table ways to reduce taxes if that is what we have in mind. I feel that this would not be so much a reduction in taxes as an adjust- ment to encourage the continued expansion of the housing industry. I think perhaps it is worthy of some consideration. I admit that I have not attacked all sides or looked at all the considerations that might arise in The Address-Mr. Enßield connection with his suggestion, and I must admit that the suggestion may be considered a selfish one on my part because more than 95 per cent of my constituents are home owners. Mr. Nicholson: Could the hon. member estimate what it would cost the federal treasury? Mr. Enfield: No, I do not have any estimate of the cost of this reduction to the federal treasury. The question arises as to the application of the sales tax and excise tax in connection with supplies purchased by school boards for maintenance and construction. We saw this principle invoked last year in the reduc- tion of excise taxes on certain equipment purchased by municipalities. It might be well worth looking at the school situation from this point of view. Tax reductions do not always mean reduc- tions in the actual revenue collected and perhaps that was what was in the mind of the hon. gentleman who asked the question a moment ago. This may seem paradoxical, but we all know that often some reduction in taxes will produce an increase in economic activity, the fruits of which are greater reve- nue or perhaps the same revenue as before. I do not like to think of taxes being de- creased because that raises connotations in the minds of businessmen that the govern- ment is on an economic drive. I would not like to see government expenditure decrease because I think that would be a very bad thing for the economy at this time. Since 1946 we have seen a tremendous expansion in business and in the economic field throughout the country. We have an expanding economy, and while it is expand- ing we enjoy more or less full employment. It is necessary that we sell the fruits of our labour abroad. We have to trade to survive, and I would like to commend the govern- ment on taking a stand for the ideal of free trade. The liberal trading policies of Canada -and I use the small letter "1" there-have been questioned lately as never before, and that is perhaps natural. Canada's trading pattern before the war was well established. We applied the sterling balances in our trade with Britain to the deficit in our trade with the United States, and thereby maintained a balance of trade between the two areas. After the second world war sterling area restrictions were strengthened; there were increases on quotas-quotas that still exist- and, of course, the pound was unconvertible. The pattern of trade under these circum- stances changed. Britain and other sterling area countries were unable to take the HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Enfteld volume of commodities they previously took because they did not have the dollars with which to pay for them, and more and more the emphasis was placed on our trade with the United States. That was a natural and in my opinion inevitable result. We could have joined the sterling area, but I do not think anyone would seriously suggest this proposition. It ignores the eco- nomic realities of our situation, which in- clude the close geographical proximity of the United States. It would also ignore the North American outlook which is part and parcel of Canada and the United States. Our equipment and organization in Canada is North American in its scope and details. We have great and numerous inter-company relationships between the two countries which is an altogether desirable and in- evitable consequence of our geographical proximity. There is a terrific pressure for United States capital to seek an investment outlet under profitable private enterprise. The United States is our chief source of foreign capital, and it will be more so. We recall the Paley commission, which was set up in the United States to study their sources of natural energy, hydro, coal, oil, and uranium. The commission, I believe, reported in 1952 to the United States con- gress that their home sources of energy were on the decline and had passed their peak. Every day means the consumption of more energy in industry and in homes in the United States. Canada, on the other hand, has tremendous sources of energy that have yet to be developed, and some that have yet to be discovered, while the United States will be forced to look more and more outside their own country for sources of cheap natural energy. Developments in British Columbia in the field of hydroelectric power are indicative of the trend. We see ourselves exporting tre- mendous quantities of hydroelectric power in the form of aluminum from British Columbia and some other parts of the coun- try. What then is the result of this trend? Two-thirds of our import and export trade at the present time is with the United States. Roughly, we take about 26 per cent of all United States exports. We are their best and largest single customer. We take more goods from the United States than all the Latin- American countries combined, and indeed more than all the European countries com- bined. We still have surpluses, of course, particu- larly in our farm products. It has been sug- gested that in order to promote convertibil- ity of the pound we should loan money to Britain. This is a good suggestion, but it [Mr. Enfield.] ignores the fact that British traders of late have been given more or less a free hand in the purchase of lumber, wheat, and metals, and they do not want to borrow money to purchase items which are not essential to their economy. It is all very well to suggest that we loan Britain the money with which they can purchase our goods and thereby assist them in their drive toward converti- bility. It takes two to make a bargain, and it is very doubtful if Britain is disposed to borrow money. Her aim is to get out of debt and strengthen her economy, which in itself will provide the answer to convertibility. That answer lies in free trade. The general agreement on tariffs and trade embodies the old empire preferences, because they are acceptable to the countries taking part in the agreement. Under the circum- stances we have seen an increasing amount off multilateral trade between sterling and dollar countries, and the situation is improv- ing continuously. However, convertibility is not something you just pick out of the air. It will take time and patience on the part of the countries involved to reach that point when we will have the benefit of trade with the sterling area free of quotas and restric- tions. In the meantime, our government is press- ing for the provisions of the general agree- ment on tariffs and trade, and urging that they be fully carried out. I think the recent journey of our ministers of trade and com- merce (Mr. Howe), finance (Mr. Harris) and external affairs (Mr. Pearson) to Washing- ton was an imaginative, courageous and highly commendable action; and although it may be some time before we see any change on the part of the government of the United States we can certainly say that we have tried to impress upon the United States the importance and urgency of carrying out the provisions of the general agreement on tariffs and trade. From that point of view I think the negotiations were highly successful. We have seen a great economic and spiritual conflict in foreign relations among the differ- ent countries of the world. We hope that out of that conflict, as is very often the case, a firmer understanding towards peaceful development will emerge. Despite our prob- lems the Canadian nation has been pulling its weight as a world power. When we have been called upon to do so we have contributed to the defence of the free nations. We took our part in the Korean conflict. We participated fully in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. I think the free world is better for the 12 squadrons of fighters we now have operating in Germany. We have an JANUARY 18, 1955 important role in Indo-China. We did our part in the Korean negotiations. I feel that our spokesmen are admired and respected at the United Nations. On the economic front, the Canadian dollar is still the world's strongest currency. We shall obviously have our bad moments, but underneath it all there is an underlying economic, spiritual and philosophic strength which none of us yet fully appreciates. I feel that we should have no fear for the future. Mr. Speaker: Hon. members will realize that for the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hanseli) to start his speech at five minutes to six might not be too convenient. Shall I call it six o'clock, if that is agreeable to the hon. member? Some hon. Members: Agreed. At six o'clock the house took recess. AFTER RECESS The house resumed at eight o'clock. Mr. E. G. Hansell (Macleod): Mr. Speaker, may I thank you indeed for your courtesy at five minutes to six in asking for unanimous consent to call it six o'clock. It helped me to avoid starting my speech only to break into it for the dinner recess. In the debate on the speech from the throne I wish to speak on behalf of the people of the constituency of Macleod, which I have had the honour to represent for some years. The constituency of Macleod is quite diver- sified in several ways. There are the Turner valley oil fields at the northern and western corner, and while they are not quite as active today as they were some years ago, neverthe- less there is quite a little industry in that part of the constituency. Then there is the great foothills country on the east slope of the Rocky mountains, which is a tremendous ranching region. Toward the south and west is the coal mining area of the Crowsnest pass. We have a sugar beet industry in the southern and eastern corner, and most of the central region is composed of a rich and vast wheat growing area. In the time allotted to me in this debate I do not expect to be able to speak on all the various things that affect my constituency. There will be time for that later during the session, when I will be able to speak on behalf of every part of this diversified riding. But I do wish to pay some attention at the present time to a situation that I think is most serious. I refer to the cash position of the farmers of the west. I refer to those of The Address-Mr. Hanseil my constituency in particular, because I represent them; but I am sure many others who represent farming regions of western Canada will agree with me that this matter is of grave importance. During the summer I attended and spoke at a number of meetings called by various farm organizations, as well as having the opportunity, of course, of talk- ing to many farmers privately. I found that to many of them the situation was serious to the extent that they did not have enough money to get along. I think we all realize that over the past number of years the farmers have not com- plained too much. Prices have been fair to good, and for the most part crop conditions have been reasonably good. There have been some areas where we have had crop failures, and of course the situation in Saskatchewan this year is very bad. But the fact that there is a surplus of grain does not help the farmer if he has no money at the moment. In my investigation I found this meant that certain farmers were in danger of having foreclosures made on the things they had bought. Machine companies were beginning to tighten up, and other companies that had financed purchases of the farmers were beginning to take steps if payments were not made right on time. Some farmers came to me and said they had difficulty in meeting their current expenses to the extent of having to ask the grocer and others to wait for a little while. It is a well known fact that oil and gas com- panies came to a point in their operations where they instituted a cash on delivery policy. While we are very thankful in our part of the country, Mr. Speaker, for a meas- ure of prosperity over the years, it must not be thought that all our farmers are wealthy. Some of them have not done too badly, but there are others who by no stretch of the imagination can be considered to be wealthy or in a favourable financial position. Young men who have started to farm are finding it particularly difficult to get along when they have no cash. The same is true of some young veterans who have started afresh. They do not complain about the treatment they have received from the Department of Veterans Affairs or the policy that has been laid down for them by the government, but they are having difficulty now in financing their way because they do not have cash. Then again there are the small farmers. In my part of the country it is pretty diffi- cult to be successful with a small farm at any time. Wheat growing is pretty general among the farmers of that particular area, and it is considered that a farmer there finds it pretty tough unless he has a fairly large amount of 312 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Hansell land. The small farmer finds it hard to get advantage of these bans if they did nat along today, particularly in view of the fact need them, but the farmers who find they that he cannot sell his wheat and consequently cannot pay their grocery bills, cannot meet does not have any cash. operating expenses an their farms, cannot It might be said that there is a surplus ofdeliveries, cannot pay for grain, and most of these farmers have wheat h etaen adat of oanei they had in their bins. That may be so. Perhaps been made available. I do believe the gov- there was a day when the saying was true ernment could have done something along that "wheat in the bin was as good as money those unes. in the bank", but that cannot be said today. It is not true today because while they may Now, what of the future? It is wintertime have a surplus of grain stored on their farms, now, but the first thing yau know spring wil they cannot meet their bills if they have no be here. The farmers wibl have to put in cash. Foreclosures of one kind and another their crops. Again perhaps the ail companies are threatened, and that is not a very healthy and other companies dealing with farmers or happy situation. will go on a cash delivery basis. What is I think we will all agree that the govern- going ta happen? Are the farmers to con- ment has given no consideration whatsoever tinue in this predicament? I urge the gav- to alleviating this serious condition. I believe ernment, in the strongest possible terms, ta they should have done so, because there are give seriaus consideration ta this most ways of alleviating what may be more or less g a temporary condition. However, if the introduce appropriate legislation t deal wth temporary condition lasts too long it is then this matter. I am sure western farmers mr hntempytbeoe acndto would be pleased if samething of that kind more than temporary; it becomes a condition cudb capihd aoywudb that one must expect from one crop year ta ou of poeadhe farmer would be another, and that is not good.ouofpceadtear rswl b anoterand hatis nt god.pleased with that action by this gavernment. I claim that the government could have I ask that the gavernment take appropriate taken steps to devise some plan whereby measures along these lines as soon as passible. farmers with wheat in storage on their farms During this session I shah deal with ather could have received some money, at least matters affecting my constituency at such enough to get by on. I see no reason why the times and an such apprapriate occasions as government could not have guaranteed the wiîl afford mare effective discussion. I turn banks against loss in case they lent money now ta another matter upon which I think on the farmers' wheat. They could have there is need for some comment. We have done that as a sort of bridge-the-gap policy. heard a good deai in this debate, particularly The government guarantees bank loans today fram aur C.C.F. friends, about what they in many other respects. We have the Cana- regard as the evil of aur private enterprise dian farm loan board, the loans of which are system. Frankly, of course, we in this corner guaranteed by the government. We have of the house, we Social Crediters thraughout the national housing scheme under which the Canada, support an effective private enter- government guarantees the loans of those prise system. We recagnize that in the past people who borrow money for housing. The there have been certain abuses of the system banks are now engaged in these lending by certain individuals or corporations. How- operations, so it is not a new thing for the ever, that is fi reason for blaming the sys- government to guarantee the banks and lend- tem as a whale. We believe that these abuses ing institutions against loss. It does seem ta couîd be eliminated and that the private me that the government could have taken enterprise system cauld function effectively some steps along that line to help the and efficiently for the good of ail the citizens farmers. of Canada, providing them with incomes and There is another suggestion. In my opinion at the same time giving them the freedom it would not have been difficult for the wheat that free enterprise should give. board itself to advance payments on the grain We believe private enterprise could be- the farmers have in their granaries. It would be tantamount to taking the grain ahead came extremely eeve u e a pro of time. After all, the wheat ultimately has to go through the wheat board for sale, and stock in trade argument for aur C.C.F. I see no reason why the wheat board could friends, whom we have learned ta like as not have adopted some plan of that kind men, ta blame private enterprise for every- under the direction of a government policy. thing. It is significant that they neyer say, at This would have been of tremendous help least I have neyer heard any of them on any to the farmers who were in need. It would occasion, how they would handie any prob- not be necessary for the farmers to take lem for which they blame private enterprise. [Mr. Hanseil.] JANUARY 18, 1955 If an economic probiemn exists they neyer appraise it in the light of ail its factors; they neyer seek for a proper solution. They just blame private enterprise and rap the knuckies of this Liberal government or any govern- ment throughout the country for what they dlaimn is that government's loyaity to the private enterprise systemn. While I say that, after a good many years of observation and study, and a good many years during which I have been responsible for appraising political trends, I have come to the conclusion that in reality there is no more dangerous socialist party than the present Liberal party ini Canada. Now, that may sound strange to some ears. Mr. Winch: Who is to cross the floor? Mr. Hanseil: I think I can show that is true. I did not say they were socialîsts in the same sense as our C.C.F. friends are. I said they were a more dangerous socialist party than our C.C.F. friends are, and 1 shall tell you why. Our C.C.F. friends are out- spoken in respect to their socîalist proposais. They make no bones about them. They say "We are socialists; we believe in the social- ization and government ownership of in- dustry". They lay their cards on the table and say "lThere you are. We believe in it and we want it to corne." But our Liberal friends, they say "Go easy; flot so fast". They give lip service to free enterprise but bide their tirne to untroduce socialist legisiation. One only has to examine the debates of the house to find the truth of what I have just said. If you turn to the speech delivered by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Philpott) the other day you will find that he talked about the Conservative amendment. I arn not going to read ail he said because I think we ail remember it. Oh, I got the wrong page. Mr. Winch: That is not ail you got wrong, either. Mr. Hanseil: We wili see in a lîttle while how wrong I am. The hon. memnber for Winnipeg South- Some hon. Memnbers: Oh, oh. Mr. Hansell: I should say Vancouver South; excuse me. You see, there is so very littie difference between one of the members from Winnipeg and one of the members frorn Vancouver that it is very difficuit for me to distinguish between them. I was about to say that the hon. member for Vancouver South was very jubilant in recognizing that the Conservative party in this country is now jumping over the traces and recornmending a contributory national health insurance plan. The Address-Mr. Hanseli Indeed, he said at page 103 of Hansard that when he heard that his heart beat for joy. He said: When I heard that my heart beat with joy. My cup of jubilation really ran over. But he did deplore the fact that the Act- ing Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) had stolen the thunder of the leader of the C.C.F. He referred, of course, to the humorous inci- dent that had occurred in English bay when some chap dived in and came up minus his swimming trunks, and you wiil recail how he likened that to the leader of the C.C.F., visu- alizing that hon. gentleman standing in Eng- lish bay minus his swimming trunks. Then he said, to quote agaîn from page 103-and, remember, the hon. member for Vancouver South recognized that the pro- posai made in the amendment was in fact a piece of sociaiist legislation- May I say without any attempt at betng facetiaus or witty just how glad ail of us are on this side of the house who have always believed in the prin- ciple of national health insurance and who also believe ini the principle of "not swift nor slow to change but in its season to bring the law". And then he went on to say: May I express the true hope that the smllng, genial and highly respected Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) wlU still be around when our Prime Minister rounds out the final blueprint which was laid down in 1919 by the great Mac- kenzie King and we finaily wind Up the finest wel- fare state on earth with a national health insurance scheme. That is the quotation. How often do we hear it said in this house and out of it that the C.C.F. are nothing but Liberals in a hurry. I did not go to the trouble of turning back to last year's Hansard and reading the speech which I remember was given by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), when he was pleading for this legisiation. At that time the hon. mem- ber went back into history and said, "Now, i such and such a year we proposed this. We have been urging it and urging it, and even- tually the Liberals have adopted it. In such and such a year we proposed this other thing, and we urged it and urged it, and later on the Liberals adopted it." He went back into 'history; indeed, he must have done quite a littie bit of research. We know he does that. I was interested in his speech when he proceeded to show how the C.C.F. had urged these various policies-and they must be socialist policies or they wouid not be urging them-and that the government eventually had adopted them. Then he went on in his speech to say, "Now we have proposed this. It is coming. Why flot now?" Mr. Knowles: Hear, hear. 314 HOUSE 0F COMMONS The Address-Mr. Hansell Mr. Hanseli: "Hear, hear" the hon. member Mr. MacDaugall: Would the hon. member says. What does it mean? It simply means permit a question? this- Mr. Hanseli: Well, my hon. friend is very Mr. Gillis: That the Liberais are smart. genial, so I think perhaps I should aliow himn Mr. Hanseli: And I will tell my hon. friend to ask his question. from Great Britain- Mr. MacDougall: Thank you very much. I Some hon. Members: Oh, oh. was going to ask you if you believe in volun- tary heaith insurance, because you certainiy Mr. Hanseil: From Cape Breton-I will tell preached it in British Columbia. my hon. friend just how smart they are. Mr. Hanseli: 0f course we believe in volun- They are a littie smarter than the C CF. F ayhat nuacbcuew aetabecause the C.C.F. wear heavy clog bootar haith insurane, cusewehaeyha when they propose something, îetting every-no thuguthecnry body know they are coming. Mr. MacDougall: Oh, yeah? Mr. Gillis: Honest, honest. Mr. Hanseil: 0f course we have. Anyone Mr. ansll:But he ibeal prtyarec.an go into a voluntary health insurance plan smarter, because they put on their socialist sml ypyn h rmus hr r carpet slippers and creep Up on the public. agood many companies that have it. Eventually sociaiist legisiation is put on the Mr. Knowles: Anyone can have a Cadillac, statute books, and some time after the peopie if he cari pay for it. suddenly awaken to the fact that they have Mr. Hanseli: I turn now to the amendment been engulfed in a sort of socialistic welfare proposed by the C.C.F. I should like to readstate, without their knowing it. The Liberals it, because I have a word or two to say aboutgive us socialism by stealth; that is the differ- i.I as ence etwen th paries.That the amendment be amnended by inserting Mr. MacInnis: You are not saying that the thercîn immediately after the words -Your Excel-Libealsarestogesfor he .C.., re oulency's advisers" the following words:Libealsarestooes or he .C.F, ae yu? have deliberately returned to the policy of uncon- trolled and unplanned private enterprise whichMr. Hanseli: I say that the Liberal party of resulted in the depression and unemploymnent of Canada is the great carpet-slipper sociaiist the pre-war years, and that Your Excellency*s party of Canada. advisers have failed to undertake the economic planning necessary to cope with the serjous prob-Mr. Knowles: Do you favour heaith insur- lemas iow facing the Canadian people, and"- ance, or are you against it? Now, I wonder if the wording of that sub- Mr. Hanseli: I knew my hon. friend would ameudment is correct. In it they are biaming have to bring that up. We do favour a type free enterprise or private enterprise for of health insurance, but not the type my hon. the depression of pre-war years. To my way friend favours. of thinking private enterprise in pre-war years did a grand job. The job was to pro-An hon. Member: A different kind of duce the things peopie needed. They didslipper. that job. As far as my friend saying that Mr. Hanseli: I do not know; perhaps we are the government is returning to an uncon- flot so smart, either. We are so far ahead of trolied and unpianned private enterprise, them in our thinking that perhaps we are may I say our war effort was carried on ahead of our times. remarkably well. The reason it was carried Mr. nowls: hat aveo n remarkabiy weil was that the government,Mr. Kowle: Wht hae0yo got on your with a system of controis which I admit arefeet? necessary in wartime, did permit private Mr. Gillis: Moccasins. enterprise to do the job and it did it well. Mr. Hanseil: We see things happening in In pre-war days we know that we had an the world; we see things happening ail around economnic depression, but it was not because us because of an economnic system that is private enterprise had not produced the basicaily wrong. We Social Crediters believe goods. It had produced the goods. The we have the solution \vhereby the people of only difficulty in pre-war years was that the Canada can have the security that our vast people did flot have the money in their productive wealth can give them, and that pockets to buy the goods. they can have it without socialization and That brings us back to a very different without taking any of their freedom from uine of thinking. It was not a matter of them. They wiil be able to be free and secure private enterprise or government ownership and enjoy ai] the good things this potentially at ail; it was a matter of pursuing a finan- wealthy country can give. cial policy that failed to> put purchasing [mr. Knowles.] JANUARY 18. 1955 power into the hands of the people, enabling thern ta buy the goods which were available. Here is ane thing I would like ta have aur C.C.F. friends tell us. I wauld like ta have thern tell us how in pre-war years they cauld have taken over private enter- prise and still distributed the goods that were piled sky high in aur stores, in aur granaries, in aur warehauses, and with aur assembly Unes closed down. It was because people did nat have any rnoney with which ta buy thern. I would like them ta tell me haw governrnent ownership would have salved that problern. Naw they talk about a planned ecanarny. I arn nat saying that those in respansible governrnent positions shauld flot have sorne idea of what they are doing, if that is what they call planning. But that is flot what aur C.C.F. friends mean. I would like ta knaw wha is ta do the planning. I rnight ask rny friends, since they believe in econornic plan- ning, if they would be satisfied with the type of econornic planning that this Liberal gav- ernrnent wauld pursue? 0f course, the answer is obviausly no. Would they be satisfied with the type of ecanomic planning that wauld be pursued under the palicies of the Conserva- tive party? 0f course, I do nat think the Conservatives will ever be on that side of the house ta attempt ta follow their palicies; nevertheless, would they be satisfied if that happened? 0f course the obvious answer is fia. I arn quite certain if we Social Crediters believed in econornic planning and were an that side of the house they would flot agree with aur type of ecanomic planning. What wauld they be satisfied with? 0f course rny hon. friend back there says "«Our type of econarnic planning"~. When aur friends talk of econornic planning what do they mean? They mean, of course, what they thernselves would plan. It would be social- ist econarnic planning by the socialists; that is what they rnean. Mr. Speaker, we in this house have clairned for years and years that there is a basic error in the present rnanetary policy. We have clairned that there neyer is enough rnaney corning out of the process of production, whether in wages, dividends, salaries and Sa forth, ta buy back the total production at the prices they are oftered for sale. We dlaim there is a fundarnental, basic error ini econarnic policy; that the only way the products of the nation can reach the consurners is for an additional arnount of purchasing power ta be placed in the hands of consurners without going through the productive systern. We say that if that were done, then the standard of living of aur Canadian people would be just as great as aur productive The Address-Mr. Hanseil capacity could produce, and at the sarne tirne yau would flot have what aur socialist friends dlaim must corne, that is socialist economic planning; for a properly devised and effec- tively functioning financial policy would be its own planner. Mr. MacInnis: Who would devise and plan? Somebody would have ta do it. Mr. Hansoil: My friend may say that, but it would flot satisfy him anyway, even though I answered him. An hon. Member: Who daes the planning now? Mr. MacInnis: You have no other answer ex.cept the issuing of maney. Mr. Hanseil: I arn positive that those who sit an the treasury benches today knaw that the big problem is ta equate cansuming power with producing power. If there is an equa- tion of production with consumption in ternis of purchasing power and prices you will have no difficulty, and yau wîll salve the very grievous prablerns that are facing the people of Canada today. Mr. Knowles: Who is gaing ta plan the equation? Mr. Hanseli: As far as unemployment is cancerned, we look upon that in a different light. That is why I say that in aur thinking we are just a little bit further advanced than some of the athers. I ar nfot patting aur- selves on the back when I say that; I arn simply saying that I think it is sa. What is the objective of civiîizatian? Are nat we put ta make progress? Are we here far the purpose of seeing that everybody works, warks and warks? 1 do not think we are. I think we are here ta see that people enjay if e with perhaps the least passible arnaunt of wark. I say that seriously. We do that in rnaâny ways; yet when we do it, it praduces prob- lemns for us. For instance, we cut the haurs of labour ta a 40-hour week instead of a 48-haur week, and perhaps the day will came when we will have a 36 or a 34 or a 32-hour week. Why? We can do things in less tirne. That does flot salve the problern, yet we do it. Surely it is a thing ta be desired, ta take the sweat and tail frarn the braws and backs of our workers. We drag out ail sorts of labaur-saving gadgets in order ta save labour. We do that, and then we talk about unern- ployment. It is flot unernployrnent that shauld be aur cancern, it should be "'unim- payrnent". You will flot find that word in the dictianary; I originated it. An hon. Member: Explain. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Tucker Mr. Hansell: That is something we should and could do. We should provide adequate incomes, and it is possible to have adequate incomes and at the same time take the sweat and toil from the brows and backs of those who work. I am not going into all the technical details of our Social Credit proposals, although I could do it. You would not accept thern if I did. An hon. Member: The hon. member should have started earlier. Mr. Hansell: We have been presenting our proposals in this bouse for the past 20 years. Some of us are now in our twentieth year in this parliament, and we trust that some of these things may eventually come to pass. I do not believe they will come about through our present Liberal administration. They certainly will not come from our socialist friends. The Conservatives will not have the opportunity to bring them in. What, therefore, are we to conclude? The only thing we can conclude is that if these things are to come it will be through a Social Credit govern- ment, and they alone will bring them to realization. Mr. W. A. Tucker (Rosthern): Mr. Speaker, at the outset I wish to extend my sincere congratulations to the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. Perhaps I should say a word about the very entertaining speech by the hon. member for Macleod (Mr. Hansell) to which we have just listened. I tried to follow him when he endeavoured to prove that the Liberals were really socialists in disguise. Of course, it would be difficult to prove that to me. How- ever, I was interested in his reasoning. He said that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) had outlined various C.C.F. proposals, and suggested that the Liberals had put those proposals into effect. I do not recall exactly what proposals the C.C.F. suggested, but the hon. member for Macleod said they must have been social- ist proposals because they were suggested by the C.C.F. I tried to remember the items listed by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre which the Liberals put through and I recalled unemployment insurance, old age pensions, blind pensions, and, I believe, family allowances. In this regard, however, I would remind the hon. member that the Social Credit party also supported those measures, and I suppose on the same reason- ing they are therefore socialist. That is the full extent to which I shall try to answer the hon. member for Macleod, because I confess I was not very successful [Mr. Hansell.] in following his reasoning. I closely followed speeches by members of the official opposition and attempted to detect what faults they had to find in the past administration of this country, and what they had to suggest by way of remedy. It seems to me they concentrated on two things; first, the question of rising unemployment, and second the reduction in export trade. I shall deal with some of their suggestions during the course of my remarks, but first of all I wish to deal with some of the positive achievements of the present govern- ment which, I believe, fully warrant the sup- port they have received over the past 19 years. I believe the most important consideration for all of us is the extent to which we have contributed as a nation, under the leadership of the present government, to the preserva- tion of peace. The London-Paris agreement will shortly be laid before the bouse. That agreement is designed to promote the solidar- ity of the western world against the only pos- sible aggressor, imperialist communism. With regard to this agreement, in my opinion there can be no doubt as to what we should do in the light of history. We were often told in the past that if it had been made plain to German leaders before the outbreak of the 1914 war that they were going to find Great Britain arrayed against them, they would never have plunged the nations of the world into war. Certainly I believe it is fair to assume that had they known they would ultimately find ranged against them not only Great Britain but the United States as well, the 1914 war would never have taken place. Coming now to the outbreak of the war in 1939, it was thought at that time that if Great Britain made it plain that if Hitler committed further acts of aggression against Poland there was no doubt where Great Britain would stand, it was hoped that would deter Hitler. Apparently Hitler was not convinced that Great Britain meant business. Also I think it is again fair to say that if Hitler had been sure that not only would Great Britain enter the war with the determination which she ultimately displayed, but that he would find the great power of the United States also ranged against him, he would never have started the war in 1939. Surely we should learn from these events. If we who are opposed to aggression make it quite plain to the aggressor that we mean business and will stick together and fight against anyone who endangers the peace of the world, then it seems to me that in all probability war can be prevented. Therefore in our attempt to unify the western world we should thereby make it plain to the only JANUARY 18, 1955 potential aggressor in the world today that if sbe starts a war she will flnd the entire western world unifled against ber. I believe that by taking this step we will be going as far as we possibly can in this field to ensure the peace o! the worid. It seems to me that when communist groups in ail parts of the worid try to undermine the will and determination of the free world to unite in strength and common purpose and make their enmity plain, then it is quite clear where their interests lie. People who believe in freedom, democracy, and peace surely should not follow the iead o! communist stooges, witting or unwitting, in this or any other country. There is another feature of the international situation in which our government, under the leadership of the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) and the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pearson), have played a very worthy part, and that is in their sup- port of the efforts of the United Nations to help the economicaliy undeveloped nations, particularly in the Far East. I do not believe there is any doubt that rather than starve to death people will flght and it sbould not be overlooked that force wiil not indeflniteiy maintain world peace if it is not established on justice and fair play between one section of mankind and another. I therefore strongiy support the policy of the United Nations designed to assist economi- cally undeveloped nations so they can increase their own productive capacity, for I am con- vinced that such scbemes wili assist in the preservation o! world peace. Canada, by hier support of such United Nations. schemes, and also the Colombo plan, is assisting materialiy toward that end, and I believe Canada bas played a very worthy part in ail these pro- gramns. A proper attitude toward the less fortunate people of the world is a very important fea- ture of the struggle for peace. They are fellow human beings. We do not want tbem, to swamp us by coming into this country in too great numbers, but we certainly must help them to increase their production and allow their exports into this country in sufficient quantities to buy enough food so their people shaîl not starve to death. It is a question of whether we would rather trade than flght. On the ground of simple Christian fair play, or on the ground o! self-interest, it seems to me that we should be prepared to reduce the barriers to trade, and permit tbose people to obtain the where- withal to feed their teeming populations. It seems to, me that Canada's work along that The Address-Mr. Tucker line bas been extremely worthy. She has taken the lead in promoting the elimination of the barriers to trade. I might say it appeared to me that one of the bases of the opposition criticism was thait the government had gone too far in that respect, and that we should be processing more of our raw materials at home. That was the basis upon which Sir John A. Mac- donald got bis nationallst policy accepted, namely that we should cease to be hewers of wood and drawers of water for the United States. The only way we could process more of our raw materials in this country is in somne way by quotas or tariffs to protect the industries whicb might process those raw materials. If we begin to put on quotas and protective tariffs, then of course we lose any influence we have in promoting the expansion of trade. Other nations will begin to do the samne thing. I tbink the United States today is at ber period of great decision in that respect. The United States today bas assumed political world leadership, but she must assume economic leadership if sbe is going to carry through to success the political leadership she bas assumed. About 100 years ago Great Britain realized that, as the great com- mercial centre of tbe world, she had to open her markets and throw down hier tariff barriers. By that move Great Britain be- came tremendously prosperous. She also gave leadership to a great expansion of pros- perity in the whole worid. The United States is mucb greater and more powerful today than the Britain of 100 years ago. It seems to me that although there would be some dislocation, the United States could follow the policy that Great Britain followed 100 years ago. This would stimulate the development of ail countries of the world. It would allay much o! the fear that exists today; because many people, even today, wbo have access to United States markets fear to rely on them too much, because tbey do not know when the United States may change their policy and plunge tbem into chaos in their trade relationships. If the United States could make up ber mind that she was deflnitely going to follow the policy whicb ber great President today is asking ber to follow, namely to enable nations to expand their trade with her, to buy hier production with their production, it would start the world on the road toward greater prosperity, and would ensure that we would not embark on the policy on which the nations of the world embarked in the 1930's. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Tucker When I see the world today, ten years more or less after the end of a great war, reaching about the same stage we reached about ten years after the first war, with the dislocations that follow a war, the getting on their feet of various nations, the pressures beginning to build up through unemployment develop- ing in various nations, pressure upon their governments to put on tariff s or trade quotas or in some way to interfere with trade; when I see that situation developing in various parts of the world today, I wonder if man- kind must go through what they went through when they followed a policy of economic nationalism ten years after the end of the first war. We are just reaching that stage today. I hope the great leader of the world today, the United States, will be given the vision and wisdom not to begin to tread the road that was trodden in the 1930's, with all that will result therefrom. One of the things I hold much to the credit of the present government is that they have steadfastly held to that course of promoting trade, in spite of pressure not only from out- side their own ranks but from within; and they are going to have more pressure put upon them. I say this. If the Canadian gov- ernment wavers in its devotion to that policy of trying to promote freedom and expansion of trade, then they might actually tip the scales when a real fight in that regard is coming to a decision in the United States. Who can say to what extent the govern- ment of Canada, by adhering to the policies and the principles which all governments should have learned from the experience of the 1930's, may influence others? If the gov- ernment adheres, as it has in the past, to the right policies. who can say to what extent she may have a decisive effect upon the decisions made in the United States and ultimately upon the whole course of world events? If they make a mistake or listen to some of the pleas to interfere with trade, others will do the same thing, and the whole sad story will start all over again. I want to say to the government that I appreciate the way they have handled the situation thus far. For that reason alone it seems to me that they deserve the support and the approbation of this house and of the country. I should like to say a few words with regard to the development of this country. At a time like this there is bound to be a measure of readjustment leading to a certain amount of unemployment. There is bound to be difficulty with regard to trade. But the question is this. Has the situation worked out in this country as well as or better than it has worked out in any other country in the [Mr. Tucker.] world? We are looking to the United States as an example of what can be done in the way of great development, but what is the record of Canada under the leadership of the present government? Our total gross national product in 1937 was something over $5 billion. In 1954 it had risen to $24 billion, an increase of almost 400 per cent. We think of the United States as going ahead by leaps and bounds with regard to population. But what is the great record of our own country? Since 1945 Canada has increased in popula- tion by 19 per cent while the United States has increased by only 12 per cent. Is that not something of which Canadians should be really proud? During that period we had one of the unique experiences in modern times, that of a great free people deciding by vote to throw in their lot with us. Certainly that is a great achievement of the government of Canada, in that they were able so to conduct the affairs of this country in the previous 15 years that when the time came for Newfound- land to decide whether she would complete confederation, she felt that our country had showed that it was in such good hands, had such good fiscal, economic and other policies and standards, that she could safely join her lot with ours. It seems to me that is some- thing of which the Canadian people may well be proud. They have joined us not by reason of force or pressure exerted on them, but by deciding that they should join their forces with ours. It seems to me that fact speaks volumes for the sort of government our country has enjoyed during the last 15 or 20 years. If you wish to refer to the rise in the actual standard of living in Canada, you will find that it rose by 13.3 per cent from 1945 to 1952. In the United States during the same period the rise was 15.4 per cent, or a little more than ours. As to the gross national expenditure, or the proportion of it spent on capital development-and we some- times think Canadians do not spend enough of their savings in developing their own country-in 1952 the proportion in Canada was 18 per cent, and in the United States it was only 14 per cent. The confidence that ordinary Canadians had in the soundness of the future of Canada was marked by the fact that they were willing to invest almost $1 out of every $5 in the development of Canada. That is one of the reasons we have forged ahead as we have. During that time, under the leadership of the present government, we as a country have not forgotten the weaker members of society, as is shown by the various social welfare measures that have been enacted. Of JANUARY 18, 1955 measures taken, undoubtedly one of the most important was the one making it possible for the provinces to carry out their consti- tutional obligations. There is no use in a province having certain powers if it has not the financial means of exercising those powers. A province like Saskatchewan could not possibly give the standard of education, the standard of health, or the standard of roads that could be given by a province like Ontario, with means of reaching the great sources of wealth in the great corporations in that province. With our own provincial resources alone we could not possibly estab- lish, with regard to education and health, a standard of citizenship that could compare with that which could be established in Ontario. This government recognized that there could not be first-class and second-class citi- zens in Canada, that all provinces had to be given the means of providing a minimum standard of education, a minimum standard of health and a minimum standard of the other things that the provinces should supply. So they embarked upon these financial agree- ments. These agreements mean a great deal to the province of Saskatchewan. Of the money spent by the government of Saskatchewan about 40 cents out of every dollar comes from the federal treasury, and there is no doubt that Saskatchewan could not maintain some of the programs of which it is so proud if it were not for these financial agreements. Mr. Ellis: May I ask the hon. member whether other provinces do not get the same deal from the federal government? Mr. Tucker: I am dealing with the contribu- tion the federal government has made to this whole program, and I am speaking about Saskatchewan because I know it best. I am not making any suggestion that the federal government has favoured Saskatchewan, but I do say that Saskatchewan of all provinces is probably as much in need of this program as any other province, certainly far more in need of it than Ontario, Quebec or British Columbia. As a matter of fact, now that my attention has been drawn to it, one of the things about which I find fault with the present government of Saskatchewan is that the premier there takes great credit for the hospitalization scheme. for example- An hon. Member: Hear, hear. Mr. Tucker: -and for other things that have been done, none of which would have been possible in the absence of the financial agreement without crippling taxation that would have prevented any development in The Address-Mr. Tucker our province. One of the things I have said is that when the premier is taking credit for all these programs he should at least say that in part at least they have been helped to do these things by the program of the federal Liberal government. Mr. Ellis: Will the hon. member permit a question? An hon. Member: Sit down. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Tucker: These agreements were most essential. They have been recognized as essential by other governments, but particu- larly by the government of Saskatchewan. One of the things that must have worried people who realize this and understand any- thing about politics was that when an impor- tant part of the country such as the province of Quebec was getting no benefit from such a financial program, there would be constant fault found with that program, and some shift in political support might mean that the pro- gram would be endangered. That was regarded as very serious by the government of Saskatchewan. I know hon. members will be very surprised to learn that one of the main arguments of the premier of that province in the last federal election was to this effect. He said, "There is no danger of the present government being defeated and the financial agreement being endangered because there is no chance whatever of the St. Laurent government being beaten. You can safely vote C.C.F. The Liberals will still be in power. You will still have all these different measures that you want to keep, but by voting C.C.F. you will show that you are not quite satisfied and would like a little bit more." There is no question but that was the main argument of the premier of our province and it showed what importance he placed upon these agreements. Our Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) found that it was thought by the province of Quebec that these agreements did not fit in with their conception of con- federation. In this respect, Mr. Speaker, I would draw particularly the attention of the people who have been finding so much fault with the province of Quebec to something that should never be forgotten. If our com- patriots of French-speaking origin had not been willing to join in bringing about con- federation, if they had not been willing to trust their fellow citizens of English-speaking origin, confederation would not have been possible. Canada would never have become a country. Mr. Noseworthy: An original idea. An hon. Member: Sir John A. Macdonald. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Tucker Mr. Tucker: That is one reason I say that the pact of confederation embodied in the British North America Act must be lived up to in the letter and the spirit. The hon. mem- ber mentioned Sir John A. Macdonald. If Sir John A. Macdonald had not been willing to go forth and meet some of the requests of the leaders of French-speaking Canada, confederation would not have been possible either. Yet these people find fault with our present great leader because he went forth to meet the premier of Quebec in order to bring about a satisfactory settlement of this important foundation of the continuation of confederation, when as a matter of fact he was just carrying on in the great traditions of great leaders of Canada of the past. I say it ill behooves any member of the C.C.F. party, whose only provincial govern- ment in Canada depends almost for its very existence upon the continuation of these agreements, to find fault with our leader for going to Quebec and trying to work out an arrangement whereby Quebec will come into this scheme and be satisfied with it. It is only on that basis, Mr. Speaker, that we can be sure these financial agreements are a part of our confederation set-up; and the present Prime Minister, in going as far as he could to try to work out some satisfactory arrangement with Quebec, has helped to complete that foundation. I say that far from the people of Canada being humiliated, as was said by a member of the C.C.F. party in the house, by the Prime Minister going to meet the premier of Que- bec to try to work out some sort of satis- factory arrangement that would give them a chance to share in this program together with the rest of Canada, the people of Canada will honour, as I do, that willingness to serve which does not stand upon false dignity but goes out to try to do the best it can for the country. Surely that is in keeping with the teaching in which we nearly all believe; he who would be a leader amongst you, let him be the greatest servant of all. Is it not some- thing that we have a prime minister who, when he sees a chance to get this matter settled in the interests of Canada, says, "Cer- tainly I will go and meet you and talk with you.", I know that the socialists, particularly the socialist leaders in Great Britain, have praised Winston Churchill because he has said that in order to try to promote the peace of the world he will go any place and meet anybody. Yet they find fault with our Prime Minister because he is willing to go to meet a fellow Canadian to work out a common Canadian problem. [Mr. Noseworthy.] There were two items in the speech from the throne with which I was very pleased indeed; because after all, as has been pointed Dut, the Liberal party step by step has brought in a program cf social welfare that is not excelled by any country in the world. The standard of living of the average individual in Canada is just as high as in any country in the world. The standard of living of the older people, the people who need help from the state, is not excelled in any country in the world. This has been brought about step by step by various measures as the people have been willing and able to pay for them. One such measure that will be brought into effect during this session is the provision of pensions for the needy, totally disabled. I think every member of the house will be pleased to vote for that, and I would be very surprised if the Social Credit group voted against it for fear of "it being branded as a socialist measure. Of course I do not accept the argument of the hon. member for Macleod for a single moment. I suggest that it is basic Liberal policy to promote social welfare. As you promote development and expand your national income by a system of controlled free enterprise, there is more chance of doing something for the needy and helpless than by hampering development by attempting to get the utmost out of what might be regarded as equitable distribution. Surely we can do more by increasing our gross national product from $5 billion to $24 billion; surely we can do more for the old, the unemployed, the helpless and the blind by such an increase in our gross national product than we can by any system of very refined distribution. As I see it, that is the answer of the Liberal party to socialism. It hampers development which is the basis upon which one can really improve the lot of the needy by concentrating too much on di.stribution. Another measure about which I was very pleased to see a reference was the proposal to improve the position of those receiving the war veterans allowance Before I conclude, however, I should like to deal with a problem facing western Canada today. As you know, in 1939 the Prairie Farm Assistance Act was passed under which the farmer contributes one per cent of the receipts from the sale of his grain. This is collected by the federal government. In the case of crop failure, payments are made to the farmers. At the time that act was passed the farmer received about 57 cents per bushel for his wheat, on an average. The levy of 1 per cent meant that the federal government collected about half a cent per bushel. For JANUARY 18, 1955 the last eight years the federal governent has been collecting, under this 1 per cent provision, 1 *6 cents per bushel on an average price prevailing during that tirne of $1.63. This is alrnost three tirnes as much as it had been collecting when the act was passed. The difficulty is that the payrnents to the farmers rernain practically as they were when the act was passed, with the maximum payrnent being $500. Today $500 wlll flot gÔ even haîf as far as it would when the act was first passed. This payrnent was supposed to enable the farmer to put in his crop and tide himself over to the following year. It was not too generous an allowance to do that. Today, when the dollar does not go nearly as far, of course this payment does not do what the act was originally designed to accornplish. The actual costs the farmers must pay to live and carry on their occupation have risen to an extent indicated by the fact that tak- ing the index for the base period 1935-1939 as 100, the figure today is 225. In other words, it takes $225 today to do the work that $100 would have done ini the period 1935-1939. Today, therefore, $500 will not do as much as $250 would do when the act was first passed. Here is the situation. For the last eight years the governrnent has been collecting alrnost three tirnes as much per bushel as when the act was passed, and when a crop failure cornes along, as it did last year, the farmer receives in actual purchasing power less than 'haif as rnuch to tide hirn over until the next year. Mr. Knowles: Liberalisrn. Mr. Tucker: 0f course; it was the Liberals who passed this act, and I hope they will improve it. Mr. Ellis: Are they responsible for the cheaper dollar, too? Mr. Tucker: So far as the cheaper dollar is concerned, if you people could have put your policy into effect the dollar would flot be worth haîf what it is today. The fact that the dollar will not go as f ar as it would 10 or 15 years ago has been recognized in other fields. Superannuation rates have been increased. Old age pensions have been doubled cornpared to what they were when first introduced. Pensions for war veterans have been doubled. The salaries of civil servants, 1 believe, have been more than doubled. When I first sat in this house rner- bers of parliament drew $3,600, and their salaries have been substantially increased. Unernployrnent insurance benefits have been increased. 50433-21 The Address-Mr. Tuclcer The farmer says that when he has been paying into this fund for some time on the basis of an undepreciated dollar, under an act designed to carry him over in the event of crop failure, then hie should have the samne recognition that has been given to these other groups. This provision is something in the nature of unemployment insurance. The farmer belleves this was a good act, and if it is going to do the thing it should do then he should be given the samne purchasing power as envisaged by the act when it was first passed. I arn quite aware of the fact that the federal governrnent has to put rnoney into this scherne. Up to last faîl they had paid out $144 million and collected from the farm- ers only $73 million. In other words they paid out almost $2 for every dollar collected. Somebody may ask, in view of this, why I arn suggesting the payments ought to be increased. At the time the act was passed it was recognized that you could flot have an actuarîally sound scherne of this sort that would carry itself. The governiment deerned it wtse to have a plan whereby, in the event of crop failure, the farmers could get sorne rnoney to carry them over until next year out of a fund to which they had contributed, rather than have the government pay out money from public funds entirely by way of relief or agriculturai assistance. Today I believe it is generally recognized as being rnuch sounder to have a scheme whereby people contribute to a fund, rather than have the whole burden fail upon the national treasury. This was a good act when passed. I suggest now that the payrnents be increased so that they will have the samne value in tiding the farmer over as they had when the act was first passed. 1 arn also aware of the fact that sornebody rnay say, well, you are doing that only for the prairie farmers. I suggest that if the farmers ini any other branch of agriculture are willing to contribu-te to such a scherne, it would be a good thing to give thern the sarne protection as the prairie farmer receives. I feel that in every way that would be better than waiting until dis- aster strikes and having these people have to corne to aslc for sornething by way of agricultural assistance. I feel that would be fairer to agriculture; because we recognize that agriculture, and particularly western agriculture, suffers frorn protective tariffs more than other industries. Sorne of the protected industries can look after themselves in the case of set-backs. Farmers, and particularly the prairie farmers, have neyer been in that position, except for HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Bryce a few fortunate ones. It was recognized, therefore, that they should receive some pro- tection like this as some compensation. I would appeal to the government to give consideration at this time to increasing the payments under the Prairie Farm.Assistance Act, especially since many of our farmers have had almost complete crop failures. This would not result in a loss to the economy as a whole, because over and over again it has been demonstrated that if you destroy the purchasing power of the farmers, parti- cularly the western farmers, you begin to add to the lines of the unemployed in the rest of Canada. The act is a splendid one, one of the finest ever passed. This is one way in which we could put that act, passed by a Liberal gov- ernment in 1939, in a position to do the job it was able to do when it was first passed. We would merely be recognizing the change in the value of money. I make this sugges- tion in the hope that the government will recognize its merit, as it has so properly done in the many other fields I have mentioned. Mr. William Bryce (Selkirk): In rising to take part in this debate, Mr. Speaker, I am taking it for granted that the leader of this group congratulated the mover (Mr. Leduc) and seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address, so I shall not need to do it. I will say to the two new members that I hope their sojourn in the House of Commons will be as pleasant as mine has been over the years. Now, I do not want to rehash the Selkirk by-election in any way, but I owe thanks to some people, for they certainly helped me in that by-election. My friend the genial Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson) spent some pleasant but ineffective days in the constituency. The Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Pickersgill) found his mission equally fruit- less. My good friend the parliamentary assistant to the Prime Minister certainly created some heat, but no light. Since the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) appeared only for a one-day stand, I accepted that as a polite tribute to a lost cause. I appreciated the interest shown by the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) and the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), but it is obvious that the statements made by these gentlemen carried no weight. Indeed, as I said earlier, they were of great assistance to me in winning the seat and therefore I do appreciate the co-operation they gave. Many veterans' organizations, and others, have written me and come to see me person- ally making representations with respect to war veterans allowances. I feel I would be failing in my duty if I did not bring this [Mr. Tucker.] matter again to the attention of the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Lapointe). These groups have requested me to draw the atten- tion of the minister to the plight of the many veterans receiving benefits under the War Veterans Allowance Act. However, since the beginning of this session the minister has placed a resolution on the order paper to deal with this problem. The dtifferent veterans' organizations are pretty well agreed on what they want for the veterans who have become old before their time. In many cases they are broken in health. These organizations ask that the allowance be raised to $60 for a single person and $120 for a married person, per month. Permissible income has been a serious con- plaint, and they ask that it be raised to $1,200 for a single man and $2,000 for a married man. I am pleased to note that the matter will be discussed this session, and I hope the minister will meet their demands. The old age pensioner is still receiving $40 a month, and the pensioner between the ages of 65 and 69 is still subject to the means test. Surely we can find ways and means to increase this amount. Every day we read about some group or other getting an increase in salary, and many of those people are not in the low-income brackets. It has been announced that a bill will be introduced to increase judges' salaries, and other increases are going to be asked. Anyone who will look at the order paper can see them there. In the recent by-election I visited many elderly people, a good many of whom were finding it hard to get along on $40 a month. About a month ago Val Werier, writing in the Winnipeg Tribune, disclosed some alarm- ing facts concerning the living conditions of elderly citizens in Winnipeg. Not only is this happening in Winnipeg, but it is also found in other cities, in fact right across Canada. I have clipped from the Montreal Gazette, a city far removed from Winnipeg, which is as follows: An 80-year old woman found near death from malnutrition in a shabby one-room apartment on Aylmer street, is slowly being nursed back to health in St. Mary's hospital. Weakened by a diet that afforded her no more than tea and toast, the woman was taken to hos- pital in an ambulance. She had lived in the apart- ment since her husband died of cancer six years ago. But of her $40 old age pension each month, $35 was taken to pay the rent. The remainder, $5, bought a month's supply of food. That is a deplorable condition for such a fine country as this, and we should be able to do something to relieve it. I know the general opinion on the government side is that we cannot afford an increase at ·this time. But I have lived through three wars- the South African war, world war I and JANUARY 18, 1955 world war II-and I know we were always hard up before those wars. No one had any money; but when war was declared we could find all kinds of money. A former minister of finance-I believe it was Mr. Dunning-when he sat over where our Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris) now sits was asked by one of the members of this group to set aside some money for unemployment relief early in 1939. What did he reply? He said, "Does my young friend think that money grows on gooseberry bushes?" But remember this; that when war was declared in 1939 the government found the gooseberry bushes. They found the money to buy armaments. Our old age citizens are far more important than armaments. Perhaps I do not need to tell the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) the plight of the interlake farmers at the present time. He was out there, and I know from past experience that when he goes anywhere he looks into things like this. I give him credit for that. It would have pleased me even more if it had been possible for the minister, when visiting the con- stituency of Selkirk, to go back 60 or 70 miles farther north to see conditions there. I know the Minister of Justice knows the district very well, because he spent many years up there, in one way or another. Some hon. Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Bryce: I did not say anything about by-elections. I hope the minister will not take any political meaning from my obser- vation, because I did not mean it that way. Those three lakes, namely lake Winnipegosis, lake Manitoba and lake Winnipeg, are now 4-7 feet above normal level. Many of the farmers there had practically no crop last year or this year. Livestock farmers have not been able to cut hay, because the hay land was all flooded. They found great diffi- culty in obtaining feed. Along lake Winnipeg the situation is very bad; and it is no better at lake St. Martin, because at that point the provincial government has had to move people to higher ground. When I left, the farmers on the west shore of lake Winnipeg were taking the matter up with provin- cial authorities who, I believe, will appeal to Ottawa for some help. I hope their request when it comes will not fall on deaf ears. It has been suggested that the administra- tion under the Prairie Farm Assistance Act should do something about this condition, but it does not operate in that district. It only goes so far north. There has been some talk already that the P.F.A.A. does not look 50433-21J The Address-Mr. Bryce after flood conditions. I have had many letters from men in these districts who have been hard hit. I will not take the time of the house to read any of these letters; they are all similar-practically no crop in 1953, no crop in 1954, no cash income, no credit. How are these folks going to live until the spring comes? I want to appeal to the minister now to do something for these people who are facing starvation. It is most unfortunate that New Zealand should be sending 24 million pounds of cheese to Canada when Canadian farmers have 10 million pounds of surplus cheese to sell now. I know there is more to the cheese shipment than the average man knows. It has been said that New Zealand is paying a tariff of one cent per pound and that New Zealand had a gentleman's agreement with Canada not to send any cheese for a certain period. That agreement has now expired. Perhaps the Minister of Trade and Commerce or the Minister of Agriculture will tell us what goods New Zealand is taking from us in this trade. We can then judge for ourselves if it is the proper thing to do, to bring in 2- million pounds of cheese when we have a surplus of 10 million pounds. I know in some districts of Mani- toba the only revenue the farmers have is the little money they obtain from the sale of milk going into the cheese factories; and we are destroying that. I was pleased to hear the Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris) say the other day in answer to a question asked by my colleague on my right, and I quote from page 185 of Hansard: I am not aware of there being any complaints about the manner in which these collections are made, but I can assure the hon. member that the officials who administer the acts will bear in mind the terms of the acts and the spirit parliament had in mind in passing them. I can assure the minister that there had been complaints from Manitoba, and from my own constituency. I do hope that the assurance of the minister will correct this situation. Farm income has dropped tremendously. In Toronto the price paid for cattle dropped from $36 per hundredweight in August, 1951 to $22 per hundredweight in August, 1954, a drop of 40 per cent. But in the same period the retail price of round steak dropped only 20 per cent, from 94 cents to 73 cents a pound. The farmer who is taking this considerable loss of practically 50 per cent of his income finds his costs going up. I made it my business to attempt to find out HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Bryce the latest costs and I find that this is what they are up as from 1949 to August, 1954, the latest figures I could get: per cent Taxes and interest rates ............... 21 Farm wages ............................ 19 Farm machinery ........................ 25 Building materials ..................... 30 G as, oil, etc. .......................... 9 Farm living costs ....................... 17 Equipment and materials .............. 12 There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the marketing of livestock across the country. Two of the provinces are seeking to set up livestock marketing boards. With costs going up and prices coming -down the farmer is getting quite a squeeze. When the farmer sells his cattle he finds they may go into about eight different grades. In these grades you have choice, good, medium and common. Grading is not done by a government grader but by the buyer. What may be No. 1 on Monday on a short market may be No. 3 on a plentiful market on Wednesday. This fluctua- tion is not good for the farmer. All or most of the cattle find their way to the retail butcher shop as red, blue or commercial beef. The consumer does not always get what he wants. This is what the Globe and Mail has to say: Dishonest Grading Guelph, June 7-Eastern Canadian housewives are ignorant of beef quality and as a result they are handed whatever their vendor likes to give them, Professor E. Stillwell of Ontario Agricultural Col- lege told a gathering of 500 Shorthorn breeders and their families at a demonstration of beef grading at the college here today. Producing 12 cuts of beef, he told his audience that they were purchased in various parts of Ontario as choice prime cuts, at prices ranging from 65 to 79 cents per pound, in the past few days. Not one cut could be called choice prime beef. in no instance was any of the team of purchasers, sent out under the auspices of Professor Knox, head of OAC animal husbandry department, and the Ontario Shorthorn Association directors, able to purchase red or blue ribbon beef, first and second grades respectively. All the beef purchased was of commercial quality, some of it very poor. Last week top steers at Winnipeg sold for $21, the average for the week being $19.96. Last week top steers at Toronto sold for $22, the average for choice steers being $21.73. So we had cattle selling from a top of $22 to as low as $6 for canners. But all this meat finds its way into the butcher shop. By the way, canners were selling at Winnipeg for less than that; there were canners sold in Winnipeg last week for five cents per pound. We said we would never go back to cent cattle, but if you take the valuation at today's dollar you find that five-cent canners are pretty near the cent cattle that we had in 1932. rMr. Bryce.] I was delighted to hear the Minister of Agriculture say the other day, when answer- ing an hon. member, that he had a bunch of hogs himself. I am glad of that because it may mean that he will be more sympathetic to me now than he was previously, because I have always had a grievance to offer in con- nection with the hog business. Let us look at the hog business today. We have government graders, and there are dif- ferent grades. We have select hogs B1, B2, and B3, and we have C hogs and D hogs; then we have lights, heavies, extra heavies, No. 1 sows and No. 2 sows, or 10 grades in all. But what does the housewife buy in the butcher shop? The answer is pork and bacon. You never hear of a housewife going into a butcher shop and saying, "I want a pound of No. 1 sow." I supported the minister before I came to this house and after my arrival here in the grading of hogs because I believed it to be a good step. But eight of these grades are detrimental to the farmer today, and without such a grading system the farmer could obtain more for his hogs. I would also like to draw the minister's attention to the hog that was a little too greedy at the trough and weighs 186 pounds instead of 185. This means that the farmer loses $2 of the bonus and also $1 on the price. In other words he takes a $3 trimming on that one pound of pork. I brought this to the minister's attention before, and no doubt he has had a similar experience. I believe this is something that should be corrected. I am quite certain the minister does not wish to penalize the man who has a hog which is a pound too heavy, so that he thereby loses $3. Mr. Gardiner: I lost more than that on one myself. Mr. Bryce: But perhaps you could afford it. Mr. Gardiner: No, I could not, but I could have avoided it by delivering him five pounds lighter. Mr. Bryce: The minister is the last man to complain about this, because he introduced the regulation. This is a serious business, and I think the minister should do something to rectify it. The hogs should be weighed on a graduated scale and instead of taking $3 when they are overweight it could be reduced to about 50 cents, because nothing will convince me that a 186-pound hog does not flnally end up in the bacon trade. There is one other thing I would ask the minister to do, and that is to give serious consideration to the establishment of a national livestock marketing board. Such a board should have been established a long JANUARY 18. 1955 time aga, and I believe the farmers 0f this country are beginning ta realize that we must have it. What bas taken place within the Uivestock industry over the past two years is nathing short 0f a tragedy, because there has been a 50 per cent drap aver that period. But the farmers' casts have flot dropped. The average price of .beef cattie gaing thraugh the Winnipeg market this year is around $130, but three years ago the average price was $260. It will theref are be seen that the price of beef cattie has been reduced by 50 per cent over the past two years. On the ather hand we find that aver-ail production casts increased by 8 per cent over the same periad, thereby constituting a total lass ta the farmer of almost 60 per cent. The latest available information indicates that the situation might become even worse. I fail ta see any reasanable justification for the drastic reduction in the price of beef ta the praducer. Certainly it cannot be argued that such a slump in producers' prices can be attributed ta any oversupply or surplus, because we had only 5 per cent over and above aur needs, and only 5 per cent was exported. The September 1953 issue of the current review of agricultural conditions states that the Canadian people consumed 95 per cent of the total amount marketed, and only 5 per cent was exported during the first seven months of 1953. Those figures show that we are not; produc- ing mare than we can dispose of, and should prove beyond the shadaw of a doubt that there is no possible reason for the decline lin livestock prîces. If supply and demand have something ta do with prices, as we are con- stantly led ta believe, then the price 0f beef cattle should be increasing instead o! going down because livestock production is con- stantly decreasing in direct ratio ta the increase in population. At the beginnîng o! the cen- tury the cattle population was 1,200 per 1,000 inhabitants. In 1954 it was only about 750. Our cattle population is therefore decreasing, and as long as the present system of market- ing livestock is continued the producer will inevitably receive inadequate returns from the sale of bis products. The concentration of price competitian among packer-buyers works ta the disadvan- tage o! the farmers. In this connectian I would like ta put on record a statement con- cerning the Stevens report: In the Stevens repart on price spreads (1934) uncontradicted evidence was submltted that after the formation of Canada Packers there were con- sultations between Swlfts and Canada Packers before the market o»ened each day on the prices to be paid for livestock. Further evidence sub- mltted revesled that there was a singular absence of competition for cattie among the larger packers' buyers either on the ranch or in the stockyards. The Address-Mr. Bruneau Prices quoted by one large fi-m would flot be raised by any otfler packer-tuyer. In this way the live- stock producer was exploited. I appeal to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) to give serious consideration to the setting up of a national livestock market- ing board. Mr. Raymond Bruneau (Glengarry-Pres- colt): Mr. Speaker, differences of opinion have been and stili are one of the sacred rights of democracy. This is especially true in a deliberative assembly such as this. During the present debate an the address in reply to the speech from the throne hion. members have fully exercised their right to differ. I do not intend to add much ta what bas already been said during the course of this debate, but I feel it is my duty ta submit some of 'the views shared by my constituents in Glengarry-Prescott, with particular refer- ence ta the speech from. the throne. But may I first be permitted ta sincerely cangratulate the hon. members for Verdun (Mr. Leduc) and Toronto Trinity (Mr. Carrick) on the magnificent oratory they demonstrated in propasing and seconding the address in reply ta the speech from the throne. I arn sure that they bath expressed the thoughts of the Canadian peaple at large. We all noticed that, while dealing mainly with general palicy, the speech from the throne made clear the constant care of the governrnent for the betterment; of the welfare o! the Canadian people, through a policy based on social security and econamic stabil- ization in aur country as well as in the rest of the world. Once again the government is shawing its braadmindedness in bringing this hause and the people of Canada at large ta consider the prablem presented by the frame af a universal cammunity grawing smaller every day. Unfortunately Canada, as a grawing nation, has flot; yet the fadilities with which ta mea- sure itself with many of its elders in the cultural field. That is why I feel justified in deplaring the fact that the gavernmnent is not yet ready ta implement the recommenda- tions o! the royal commission on arts, letters and sciences. The prapased establishment of a cauncil on arts, letters and sciences is of great interest ta the youth of Canada in general and, as I see it, is a lagical evolution toward a federal department of youth. Salving the immediate prablems and needs is evidently one of the main things the government must keep in mind in laying down their policies. But ane must nat forget that we are now warking for the future, actually for the generation which will be called ta lead the nation tamorrow. I know HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Bruneau it is the intention of the government even- tually to create such a council and such a department, but I sincerely believe that each day and each month that such a move is post- poned is a delay in allowing our young people to develop their talents in a way to enable them better to serve a better Canada. . As much as my constituents are aware of the necessity of furthering the cultural and physical development of the younger genera- tions, they are also quite appreciative of the laws introduced to improve conditions among the farm and industrial workers. As you know, Glengarry-Prescott is of dual composi- tion not only in name but also in the activities of its population. Farming and industry are its two components, and both these groups looked at the speech from the throne with a mixture of satisfaction and anxiety. The majority in Glengarry-Prescott is made up of people of the agricultural class, and my constituency now ranks among the largest cheese producing constituencies in the world. Our dairy farm owners, I am sorry to say, were greatly disappointed over the absence from the speech from the throne of any men- tion of added help to solve the acute prob- lems faced by them. But they are even more worried over the importation into Canada of some 2,1 million pounds of New Zealand cheese. With the millions of pounds of Cana- dian cheddar cheese at present in storage, the people I represent in this house are at a loss to understand why such authorization was granted. Eastern Ontario-and for that matter a good part of eastern Canada-is aware of the difficulties our cheese producers have gone through during the last two or three years, with regard to the marketing of their product. Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that we had to go through a great many interviews in order to secure a reasonable price for that com- modity. Now every spring the farmers of my constituency and in that region are in anguish and doubt as to the price that will be secured through the marketing of their product. I should like to see this government place this commodity under import control while we have a surplus on hand. I hope we shall see to it that this New Zealand cheese does not add to the already heavy burden on our local farmers. That two-way trade should be promoted to ensure markets for Canada is an already accepted theory. But that this practice should be implemented particularly by means of one of the products which we have in surplus is something that is not as easily understood. If it is necessary to accept this importation of New Zealand cheese in order to maintain the balance of trade between our country and New Zealand, may I suggest that we could rMr. Bruneau.] possibly exchange part of our surplus cheese or the whole of the imported cheese under our Colombo assistance, for example. It would be a way of counteracting the bad effects of such an importation, and would also be a way of relieving our dairy pro- ducers of their annual fear with regard to the marketing of their product. At this point may I also suggest that federal subsidies would be especially welcomed by the hard- pressed cheese producing industry, and that they would also help to maintain the stability of our national economy as a whole. As regards help to certain groups of the population, in the speech from the throne I notice that it is the intention of the govern- ment to provide facilities for loans to fisher- men similar to those provided to farmers by the Farm Improvement Loans Act. This is a commendable move, but the farmers would also appreciate it if the facilities extended to them by the above-mentioned act were in- creased in such a way that they could benefit from higher loans at a lower rate of interest. At present it is felt that the conditions laid down for the securing of a loan are altogether too hard to be met by the average farmer, and that in most cases the obtainable loans are not sufficient for the purposes to be served. By reconsidering the amount and the interest rates with regard to loans to farmers, I am sure the government would not only greatly help the farming industry but would also help itself. Mr. Speaker, I have taken this opportunity to stress a few of the problems of the cheese producing and farming industries, for two main reasons. The first is that I am one of those who still believe agriculture to be the most stable element of the Canadian economy. The second one is that I represent a riding made up mainly of people of the agricultural class. Nevertheless, Glengarry-Prescott also has a large portion of its population directly engaged in industry. That being so, they are fully aware of the fact that employment is of paramount importance at the present time. I was also glad to see that one of the high- lights of the speech from the throne was aimed at providing more employment through a new scheme of federal public works. It is agreed that the present unemployment is seasonal and temporary, but I feel that the government were well advised in laying down a program to relieve the tension voiced from certain quarters. Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the hon. mem- ber wish to adjourn the debate? It is now ten o'clock. Unless he obtains unanimous con- sent to complete his remarks, I cannot allow him to proceed. If he were about to con- clude- JANUARY 18, 1955 Mr. Bruneau: If I had unanimous consent to go on for two minutes, that is the most I would require. Mr. Speaker: Is it agreed that the hon. member has unanimous consent to continue? Some hon. Members: Agreed. Mr. Bruneau: In this respect may I point out that Glengarry-Prescott is the logical geographical centre for a federal building. Such a building is actually much needed in our constituency. Besides providing work for many of our local labourers, such a proj- ect would enable the government to save money in the long run by moving under one roof services like the post office, the offices of the national revenue department, the unemployment insurance commission, the Department of Agriculture, the Royal Cana- dian Mounted Police and so forth. As you are aware, Mr. Speaker, the riding I represent is not only located halfway between the metropolis and Ottawa; it lies exactly between the two main waterways, the St. Lawrence river and the Ottawa river. This geographical factor should undoubtedly constitute a strong argument to persuade the Canadian government to select a centre in our region as a suitable federal zoning area. On the other hand, convinced that their municipality could provide a logical site, the people of that region rejoice at a recent opinion that Canada has now reached a point where heavy industry should be decen- tralized. Geographically and ethnographically we enjoy* first-class industrial activity, but there is room for more factories. Allow me also to inform you, sir, that our working hands are "tops". I and my constituents feel that such a policy of industrial redistri- The Address-Mr. Bruneau bution cannot be successfully achieved with these thriving municipalities left out of the picture. I am well aware of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that important measures announced in the speech from the throne have to be studied with diligence and voted upon. Finally may I say that the speech from the throne offers a rather substantial program of measures, and I believe it should give the average man the feeling that Canada is really going for- ward under a progressive and competent government. Mr. Studer: I move the adjournment of the debate. Mr. White (Hastings-Frontenac): I move the adjournment of the debate. Mr. Speaker: There appears to be a slight conflict here. As the hon. members concerned know, to accommodate members there are certain agreements in the debate on the address that are usually adhered to. I am sure the hon. member who moved the adjourn- ment first will yield to the bon. member for Hastings-Frontenac in order to adhere to the arrangement which was made, by virtue of which it was understood prior to this hour that the hon. member for Hastings-Frontenac would adjourn the debate tonight because he was going to follow the hon. member for Glengarry-Prescott. Is that agreeable to the hon. member for Swift Current-Maple Creek? Mr. Studer: I am agreeable. On motion of Mr. White (Hastings-Fron- tenac) the debate was adjourned. It being five minutes after ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pur- suant to standing order. HOUSE 0F COMMONS Wednesday, January 19, 1955 The house met at 2.30 p.m. POST OFFICE DEPARTMENT REFERENCE TO ACCUSATIONS AGAINST DEPUTY POSTMASTER GENERAL On the orders of the day: Mr. Leon Balcer : Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade anid Commerce. Has the government received ariy request to have the Canadian wheat board handie flax and rye in addition to those grains already under 50433-22 330 HOUSE OF COMMONS Inquiries of the Ministry the control of the board? If so, what steps Minister of Transport. Has any other air does the government intend to take to im- company made application for a route across plement this request before the new crop the trans-polar areas or has any objection year? been raised to the granting of a licence to Righ± Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Trade Candia Paifi Air Lines and Commerce): Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is yes. Represen- Mr. Marier: The answer to both questions tations have been received from various farm is no. organizations from time to time requesting the government to assume responsibility for marketing flax and rye. However, it has been the view of the government that the wheat INQUIRY INTO CRASH AT CRUMLIN, ONTARIO board is fully occupied with its responsibil- ities in marketing the three major crops, On the orders of the day: wheat, oats, and barley, and it bas not been Hon. George C. Marier (Minister of disposed to ask the board to take on the two Transport): Mr. Speaker, I should like to re- small crops of flax and rye. Officiais doubt py to a question asked yesterday on the whether they could do a very much bette orders of the day by the hon. member for job than is being done with those crops on Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) regarding the recent the open market. regrettable air accident near Crumlsn air- HIGHWAYS port. His question was: Has the miniater looked into two tacts which POSSIBLE TRANSFER OF NORTHWEST HIGHWAY have been reported in connection with thia tragedy; FROM DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE the tirai being that there was a failure of power at the airport and no indication that there were On the orders of the day: in use at that trne any auxiliary or mobile lights or such other equipment: secondly, that there was Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops): Mr. Speaker, a delay of more than an hour before the stretcher on Friday, January 14, I asked the Prime party arrived at the scene of the accident from the Minister if he had any information with aîrport? regard to the possible transfer of responsibil- Perhaps I might flrst mention that it was ity for the northwest highway from the announced yesterday that a board of inquiry Department of National Defence to some would be nominatcd within a few days to other department. I wonder if he is now in a hold a public inquiry into the circumstances position to answer. surrounding the accident. I do not wish to Righi Hon. L. S. Sf. Laurent (Prime anticipate any of the facts that may be deter- Minister): Yes, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry I mined by the inquiry, but should like to give did not state positively at that time that no the bouse an answer to the questions raised such decision had been taken. I make that by the hon. member. positive statement now. From information received by the depart- ment, it is understood tbat the airport rotating CANADIAN PACIFIC AIR LINES beacon and obstruction lights were in opera- INQUIRYtion continuously. The runway and runway TRANS-POLAR SERVICE approach lights are under a separate control TRAN-POLR SEVICEsystem which is set up so that all runway and On the orders of the day: taxiway lights, plus one set of approach lights, Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prince Alberi): Mr. may be turned on at the same time. The Speaker, could the Minister of Transport say control system, however, is not intended to what has happened to the application of the carry at one time more than one set of Canadian Pacific Air Lines in regard to the approach lights, because experience bas granting of a licence to operate an air line in demonstrated tbat this is a necessary safety the trans-polar region, and when a decision is measure. If more than one set of runway expected, if it has not already been given? approach lights are on at the same time, pilots Hon.may be confused and use the wrong runway. Transpor): Mr. Speaker, I might answer the At 11.49 p.m. the pilot asked for a runway Traspoi):Mr.Speker I igb anwertbeand approach ligbts to be turned on, pre- hon. member by saying that the matter is sumably because of tbe urgent situation in under consideration, and I hope it will be which be found bimself. In view of the possible to make a decision at an early date. special circumstances, and in spite of the [Later:] control arrangements, ail ligbts were turned on, but they stayed on for approximately one Mr. Diefenbaker: I want to ask a question minute only and tben a fuse blew ont because supplementary to the one I just asked the off the overload on tbe system. The traffic [Mr. McCullough (Moose Mountain)r.1 JANUARY 19, 1955 control officer on duty in the tower imme- diately called the senior controller, the air- port maintenance foreman, the field radio technician, and then called the R.C.A.F. for crash and fire trucks. Trucks and other vehicles were lined up on one side of the run- way, lighting it effectively, and the pilot of the aircraft was informed by radio that this had been done. The lights were restored at 10 minutes after midnight, having been out of operation for 20 minutes. Hon. members will note that although the runway and approach lights were not in operation, the tower still maintained ground to air radio communication with the aircraft. Also the instrument landing system and the radio range were still in operation, providing a means by which an aircraft equipped with a radio and instrument landing facilities could make an approach to landing. With regard to auxiliary lighting, I am informed that there is auxiliary generating equipment at the field. This, however, is designed to be used in the event of a gen- eral failure in the power supply to the air- port. It is not the general practice here or in any other country to instal a complete duplicate set of airport lights. In connection with the reference to time of arrival of the stretcher party, I am ad- vised that the tower continued in radio com- munication with the aircraft until approxi- mately one minute after midnight. At 5 minutes after midnight the tower telephoned the township and provincial police and a commercial ambulance. The airport did not know at this time the exact location of the aircraft. The department does not, of course, operate an ambulance service. FISHERIES VISIT BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT TO TEST KITCHEN On the orders of the day: Mr. T. S. Barneit (Comox-Alberni): Mr. Speaker, as one of the more fortunate mem- bers of this house, alphabetically speaking, I should like to express to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Sinclair) and his staff my appreciation of the opportunity of visiting the test kitchen of his department today. I am sure those who were there with me will join with me in suggesting to those less for- tunate members that, should they have a similar opportunity, they should by all means take advantage of it. Inquiries of the Ministry BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE NOTICES OF MOTIONS AND QUESTIONS TO BE DEALT WITH MONDAY, JANUARY 24 On the orders of the day: Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister): On Monday the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe) asked if arrange- ments could be made for questions and no- tices of motions for the production of papers to be called at some early date before the orders of the day are called. In view of the standing order with respect to the debate on the speech from the throne, if that debate is not completed it could be done only with the consent of the house. If the house agreed, I would suggest that it might be done on Mon- day. Mr. Speaker: Is it the wish of the house that this agreement be adhered to? Some hon. Members: Agreed. LABOUR CONDITIONS REPORTED LAY-OFFS AT DOMINION ARSENALS On the orders of the day: Mr. J. W. Dufresne (Quebec West): Yester- day I asked a question of the Minister of Defence Production with regard to lay-offs at the Quebec and the Valcartier arsenals. Is the minister in a position to give an answer today? Right Hon. C. D. Howe (Minister of Defence Production): No. The information has not been furnished to me. I will try to have it tomorrow. REDISTRIBUTION REQUEST FOR STUDY BY HOUSE COMMITTEE On the orders of the day: Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct a ques- tion to the Secretary of State. Has he been made aware of the steps being taken in my province of Manitoba to set up an independent commission for the redistribution of provincial electoral constituencies? In view of a motion on this subject that was passed by the house last year, will the government consider ar- ranging for a committee of the house to study that matter at this session so far as federal constituencies are concerned? Hon. Roch Pinard (Secretary of State): Mr. Speaker, I was not informed of the attitude of the government of Manitoba to which the hon. member has referred. I will look into the matter, collect the necessary informa- tion and give an answer later. 50433-221 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. G. S. White SPEECH FROM THE THRONE CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON ADDRESs IN REPLY The house resumed, from Tuesday, January 18, consideration of the motion of Mr. Yves Leduc (Verdun) for an address to His Excel- lency the Governor General in reply to his speech at the opening of the session, and the amendment thereto of Mr. Rowe, and the amendment to the amendment of Mr. Coldwell. Mr. G. S. White (Hastings-Frontenac): Mr. Speaker, in the traditional speech from the throne there are some matters on which I think all hon. members are in cordial agree- ment. There are three items to which I will refer. The first is the reference to the bring- ing into operation of the Disabled Persons Act, whereby assistance will be granted to totally disabled persons. Hon. members who come from the province of Ontario will be more or less familiar with this act which has been in force in Ontario for some time. I am sure all hon. members from Ontario will agree that in Ontario the act has filled a long-felt need. I trust that the contributions the federal government will make will be ample in every way. The second matter in the speech from the throne on which I think all hon. members will agree is the provision whereby the age of eligibility for blind persons will be amended and the income ceiling will be adjusted. I am sure all hon. members are only too anxious that every possible assistance will be rendered to our more unfortunate citizens who are blind. The third matter is the welcome announce- ment that the War Veterans Allowance Act will, after these long and weary years, be amended. I would say to the minister that I hope on this occasion when the act is amended he will not make the same mistake that was made several years ago when the act was amended. I wonder if the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Lapointe) would mind just for a moment giving me his attention. I should like to say this to the minister. When you bring in the act to adjust the war veterans allowance, I hope you will not make the same error that was made by your predecessor several years ago when this act was amended and when you made only a slight raise in the monthly compensation and only a slight ad- justment in the ceilings. At that time the veterans committee and the government were urged in every possible way by all opposition parties that the monthly allowance be placed at a higher figure than $50 a month and, fur- ther, that the ceiling be much increased over [Mr. Pinard.] and above the amount proposed in the act. I say that to the minister in all kindness be- cause be realizes only too well that an act such as the War Veterans Allowance Act is only amended once in a good many years. If the same error is made this time, I fear that it will be a fairly long time before there will be any further change in this act. I might point out to the minister that the same mistake was made by his colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Garson), when some few years ago be brought in a bill to adjust the salaries paid to the members of the judiciary. He found that be made a mistake, and now he bas to come back and do the same thing all over again. Therefore on be- half of these veterans, most of them from the first world war, I urge the minister that, when it is decided in cabinet council how much the increase in the allowance is going to be, he should be very generous and keep in mind that these veterans should not be restricted with a ceiling on their income but on the other hand should be urged in every possible way to earn as much as possible for themselves and their families. I have only one other suggestion. When the bill is introduced I would ask the minister if he would consider having the increase, no matter what it may be, made retroactive to at least the lst of January, 1955. I have received from the county council of the county in which I reside a copy of a resolution which they have asked me to bring to the attention of the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Lapointe). The resolution passed by the council of the county of Hastings reads as follows: That since, by the statutes of Canada, November 1lth is designated as a public holiday, our govern- ment be urged to enact legislation that November llth not only be declared a national holiday, but that it also be observed as such. I can recall occasions in November when parliament bas been in session and the House of Commons has continued to sit and conduct business just the same as any other day. There may be many in Canada who do not care or pay much attention to the significance of Armistice day, but at least to the veterans of the first war it means a great deal, and I would suggest to the government that the resolution of the county council be given attention. It was suggested last session that at this session the Dominion Succession Duty Act would be amended, but there is no mention of it in the speech from the throne. I trust that amendments will be brought forward at this session because I am sure the government is aware of many unsatisfactory features in the present legislation. I will mention only one or two. One is that at the time the rate JANUARY 19, 1955 of exemption was set the dollar was worth a great deal more than it is today. The other is that an estate is entitled to exemption up to $50,000 but if the estate exceeds that amount duty is collected on the whole amount. If there are to be amendments of this act I trust the legislation will be sent to a committee of the house for study and con- sideration. If so, there is another point that might well be considered by the minister, namely, that the exemption granted to a widow under the act should be raised con- siderably. In the speech from the throne reference is made to unemployment and it is described as being only seasonal and regional. I have in my hand a long article from the Belleville Ontario-Intelligencer of January 17 which contains a long statement issued by the man- ager of the unemployment office at Belleville. The article is headed in large capital letters: "Employment Office Appeals to Residents to Get Repairs, Alterations of Homes Done Now." The article is two columns long. It states that in the Belleville office alone there are over 16,000 persons, male and female, registered for work. It further points out that the Belleville office does not service the whole county of Hastings, that the town of Deseronto is serviced by the Napanee office and that the west half of the township of Sidney, which contains the large town of Trenton with a population of well over 10,000, is serviced by the Trenton office. In one county there are over 16,000 registered for work, not including two large centres. Therefore I submit to the minister that it is quite reasonable to say that in the whole county of Hastings there are at least 20,000 persons registered and seeking work at the present time. That is only one county in the province of Ontario. Yet in the speech from the throne this condition is referred to as only seasonal and regional. The legislation the minister introduced last week and the legislation he proposes to introduce with respect to unem- ployment insurance are all to the good, but I would repeat to the minister what many others have said to hiin, that these increases, beneficial as they may be, are not an answer to the problem. They do not provide jobs. The minister at least has something to say about the policy of the government. He can at least use his voice to urge a reduction in taxation and do what he can to assist indus- try to produce more at lower cost so that industry will be better able to face and meet the competition of goods manufactured in other countries. Much has been said in this debate regard- ing the importation of cheddar cheese from The Address-Mr. G. S. White New Zealand. In eastern Ontario where I reside the cheese industry is most important. Hastings county is the place where the famous Black Diamond cheese is manufactured, a cheese that has done a great deal to adver- tise Canada throughout the United States. The whole dairy industry is of great impor- tance to the economy of Canada. I should like to point out that it is estimated that the dairy farmers and their families comprise two million persons. Their hired help and their dependents number 160,000. Employees in dairy factories and their families come to. 90,000 and employees in fluid milk plants and, their families number 120,000. The gross value of the whole dairy industry in Canada in 1953 was estimated at $920 million. The cheese producers in my riding par- ticularly have both interviewed me and sent me petitions asking me to protest to the government in the house against the impor- tation of New Zealand cheese. One question the cheese producers would like to know the answer to is whether or not the government intends to permit further imports of New Zealand cheese. The only answer they have received so far was given by the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) in reply to a question asked by the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe). As found at page 187 of Hansard of January 14, he said: Perhaps I could answer that question, Mr. Speaker. We do not expect any further substantial shipments of cheese from any source for at least six months and probably at least nine months. Why we want cheese imported into Canada in six months or nine months when cheeseý production is at its peak I would not know.. Neither the Minister of Trade and Commerce- (Mr. .Howe) nor the Minister of Agriculture. (Mr. Gardiner) has as yet given any reason- able explanation to this house as to why New Zealand cheese was permitted to enter Canada, especially so at a time when there is well over 41 million pounds of cheese in storage which is at least 10 million pounds in excess of other years; also at a time when the cheese producers have collected from their own members a very large sum of money in order to finance the export of cheese to the United Kingdom. They have collected a sum of approximately 17 cents a hundred pounds of milk which in the average factory would cost the patron at least $100 to $130 a year. The cheese producers of Ontario own over ten and a half million pounds of cheese. According to the press they owe the bank on guaranteed loans $3,300,000. To liquidate that cheese today in view of the competition with the cheese from New Zealand they woult probably suffer a great loss. We are told or are led to believe, that the cheddar cheese 334 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. G. S. White of New Zealand costs approximately 25 cents (b) to implement any action taken under the ta~~~~~~~~~~ 26cnsapuda hedc tMnra. gricuitural Prices Support Act, thse Fisheries Pricesto 26 cents a pound on the dock at MontreaCo-operative There is a tariff of one cent a pound on Marketing Act or tie Agricuiturai Products Board cheese which amounts to about 4 or 5 per Act, tu support tie price of tie article or tiat ias cent. Compare that to industry which has a tie elfeet of supparting the price of tie article; or protection of approximately 20 to 25 per cent. I wauld partieularly point out that this Other speakers in this debate have pointed provides for any action taken under the out to the government that in years gone by Agricultural Praduets Ca-operative Market- a decline in the purchasing power of the ing Act ta support the price af an article. farmer has always led to unemployment. We flnd that under PC. 4087, 1951, an order Today we have a decline in the purchasing in council was passed ta bring butter under power of the farmer. This decline in the the contrai af the Export and Import Permits purchasing power will be further aggravated Act. by the importation of cheddar cheese from As far as cheese is eancerned we find that New Zealand. It may be that cheese pro- under order in cauncil P.C. 1954-694 it is ducers of Ontario are suffering a great and provided: heavy loss if the government permits further Tie cammittee of the privy council, on the importation of cheddar cheese from New recommendation of the Minister of Agriculture, Zealand. The importation of this cheese into advise tiat Your Exceilency may be pleased, pur- Canada has been described by one federation suant ta section 3 of tie Agricultural ProduetsCa-operative Marketing Act, to approve nf tise official as the worst slap in the face Ontario Minister ai Agriculture entering into an agreement farmers have ever received. in tie form iereto annexed, subject to suci minor amendments, witisout cisanging matters of principie, I would like to ask the Minister of Agricul- as tie minister may approve, with the Ontario ture or his colleague the Minister of Trade Cise Producers' AFsociatian Limited, for tie and Commerce what action, if any, the gov- marketing cf a quantity of cheddar cieese produced in 1954 in the province uf Ontario, and, pursuant ernment intends to take in order to prevent b section 6 uf tie said act, approve the appoint- further shipment of cheap cheddar cheese ment of tie lirm of Arthur A. Crawiey and Com- pany, cisartered accountants, Ottawa, Ontario, ta from New Zealand. inspect and audit tie books and accounts of tie At page 20 of Hansard of January 10, 1955, said association. in reply to a question, the Minister of Trade In pursuance ai that order in couneil the and Commerce made this comment: Minister of Agriculture did enter into an During the war years a permit was required to agreement with the Ontario Cheese Produc- import cheese for the reasons stated by my hon. ers' Association in May ai 1954. While this friend, but at the moment cheese is nat under price agreement is a bit long, Mr. Speaker, I am support so far as I am aware.supprt o fr asI a awre.going ta read it. It reads as follows: At page 231 of Hansard under date of Between: January 17, 1955, the Acting Leader of the THE ONTARIO CHEESE PRODUCERS' ASSOCIA- Opposition asked this very interesting ques- TON LIMITED, hereinafter caiied tie 'Seliing tion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce: Agency" 0F THE FIRST PART Mr. Rowe: In view of the statement of the and Minister of Trade and Commerce the other day HER MAJEST THE QUREN in rigit of Canada to the effect that we might assume that in perhaps and represented herein by tie Minister of Agricul- six months there might be other shipments of ture, iereinaiter caîied tie 'Minister" cheese, has the government given any considera- 0F THE SECOND PART tion to making the import of cheese into Canada subject to permit under the Export and Import Wiereas the party of tie first part ias been Permits Act, which governs the import of butter? appaintod as seiiing agency, under the Ontario Mr. Howe (Port Arthur): Mr. Speaker, the two Farm Produts Marketing Act and tie regulations situations are not parallel because cheese does not tereunder, ta market under a co-operative plan, qualify under the legislation which governs the within tie meaning af tie Agricuitural Praducts Export and Import Permits Act. Ca-aperative Marketing Act, cieddar cieese pro- duced in tise province ai Ontario during tise year I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that the 1954, on beiaif ai cheddar cieese praducers witiin minister states that cheese does not qualify tie areas of Ontaria coming under tie Ontario cieese praducers' marketing sciseme and under the legislation which governs the Whereas tie selling agency is desiraus ai market- Export and Import Permits Act. Under that ing quantities of cheddar cieese praduced durîng act, in the interpretation section, "mnisterin the province Ontari, and actin he nterrettio setion "mniser"delivered ta it or ta its order on a co-operative means the Minister of Trade and Commerce. plan under tie provisions ai tie Agriculturai Prod- Section 5 of the act reads as follows: ucts Ca-operative Marketing ActNow tiserefare, in consideratian ot these presents, 5. The governor in council may establish a list the parties iereto iereby covenant and agree eaci of goods, to be called an import control list, witi tie otier as ialiows: including therein any article the import of which 1. Tie seiiing agency agrees ta market or cause he deems it necessary to control for any of the ta be marketed, cheddar cieese producec in 1954 in following purpose, namely. tie province ai Ontario and detivered ta it or ta [Mr. White (Hastings-Frontenac)b.) JANUARY 19, 1955 its order by cheddar cheese producers on behalf of milk producers, for sale on a co-operative plan under the provisions of the Agricultural Products Co-operative Marketing Act. 2. The selling agency will pay to the said cheddar cheese producers for such cheddar cheese, when delivered to it or to its order, an initial payment on the following basis: (1) For first grade cheddar cheese 24 cents per pound, f.o.b. cheese factory; (2) Second grade cheddar cheese 23 cents per pound, f.o.b. cheese factory; (3) Third grade cheddar cheese 22 cents per pound, f.o.b. cheese factory; and the selling agency will arrange to have the cheddar cheese producers pay to the milk producers an equivalent price in terms of fluid milk, less manufacturing costs. 3. The selling agency will make no payment to the cheddar cheese producers subsequent to the initial payment unless such subsequent payment is first approved by the governor general in council. 4. The selling agency will market such cheddar cheese to the best advantage possible. 5. For the purpose of this agreement, processing, carrying and selling costs shall include transporta- tion, storage, shrinkage, handling, colouring, waxing, interest and finance charges, insurance, account- ing, selling commissions and other processing and marketing costs, and all other expenditures oroperly included in an operating account, the total of which shall not exceed two and three-eighths cents per pound; provided that in the case of any unfore- seen expenditure in excess of normal processing, carrying and selling costs, the minister may, sub- ject to the approval of the governor general in council, increase the total amount of the costs allowed under this clause. And now we come to the important clause, where it says: 6. The minister undertakes that if the average wholesale price of all cheddar cheese produced in the province of Ontario during the year 1954 and marketed by the selling agency according to the terms of this agreement is less than the average initial payment, together with the actual processing, carrying and selling costs which shall not exceed the maximum fixed in clause 5 hereof, there shaîl be paid to the selling agency the amount, if any, by, which the average initial payment together with such costs exceeds the average wholesale price aforesaid. 7. The books and accounts of the selling agency shall be inspected and audited by an accountant or professional auditor as provided by section 6 of the Agricultural Products Co-operative Marketing Act, and the report of such accountant shall be submitted to the minister as required. There are several other clauses which do not apply particularly, but I should like to point out that under clause 6 the minister agrees and undertakes to pay a set price, or to pay a price which would put a floor under cheese. This agreement has been amended by P.C. 1955-30 of January 4, 1955. The amendment is trifling, extending the time to April 30, 1955, and making provision whereby certain further payments will be made over and above the initial price. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) has said that cheese is not con- trolled. He has also said that the legis- lation does not cover cheese so that it The Address-Mr. Studer could be brought under the Export and Im- port Permits Act. I think the order in council I have read and the agreement made as a result of the order in council show clearly that cheese is an article being supported under the Agricultural Products Co-operative Marketing Act, being one of the acts re- ferred to in section 5 of the Export and Import Permits Act. So I say to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) that the government has the necessary machinery and the authority to bring cheese under the Export and Import Permits Act, thereby prohibiting or control- ling any further imports of cheddar cheese from New Zealand. I think before the debate closes the cheese producers of Ontario would like to have some statement either from the Minister of Trade and Commerce or from the Minister of Agriculture as to whether or not they intend to bring cheese under the Export and Import Permits Act, or whether they intend to permit further shipments of cheap cheddar cheese into Ontario, thus causing loss to the cheese producers of that province. Mr. Irvin Studer (Swift Current-Maple Creek): Mr. Speaker, I am privileged to be associated wth all members in the House of Commons from Saint John to Victoria who have taken part in this debate on the address in reply to the speech from the throne. As all hon. members are aware, this throne speech gives an indication of the state of the nation; and if it is to give a true picture I believe it is the duty of members to place before the house the state of the nation in its more limited aspects, as it affects their own constituencies. And that is what I shall do in the time allotted to me this afternoon. It is always in order and a matter of cour- tesy to extend congratulations to all those deserving of them in the House of Commons, and in that group the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) must be included. There seems to be some hesitancy on the part of some members to extend congratulations to those people who have given service throughout the past year in the forum of government. I am sure however that the government need not feel unduly displeased because of that. So far as Liberal govern- ments are concerned, certainly they are not flattered by praise nor are they dejected by criticism. The people of Canada expect Liberal governments, as a matter of duty, to be patient and progressive and, irrespective of praise or condemnation, Liberal govern- ments in the past have, and I am sure Liberal governments of the future will deliver that service to the very greatest extent of their ability, to all the people of Canada so as to HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Studer have this country continue to be what even some socialists admit-the best country on the face of the earth. As hon. members were told last year, the constituency of Swift Current-Maple Creek is one of the greatest in Canada. It is my hope this afternoon, after listening to some of the damp, depressing, death-around-the- corner speeches we have heard during the last week, to present a somewhat more opti- mistic picture of what is in evidence through- out the country. It is not my purpose to minimize the diffi- culties that we face in the country, or the problems, nor is it my purpose to underrate the fact that there are some good things in this country, and I believe that if more emphasis were put on some of the good ·things of the country than on some of the bad things that may exist we would all maintain a proper balance in regard to the situation in Canada today. When we hear the people who have no hope and who live in despair speak, they talk about unemploy- ment-and there is unemployment. It is an evil that should be eradicated. Yet, there are well over five million people employed in Canada, five million people who are able to earn their own living at perhaps as high wages as earned by any people in the world. That is not done as a matter of course; it did not come about on account of any socialist party or policy in Saskatchewan or anywhere in the world. It came about because of Liberal principles that have been in evidence not only in Canada but throughout the whole world. Those Liberal principles reflect them- selves in free trade throughout all of the world, which bring us to a united front and a united attack upon the evils that may exist not only in Canada but throughout the whole world. Therefore I should like to talk of some of the good things in this country. One of the best things that I know of in this country is food. One of the accomplishments of Liberal policies throughout the years is production which has resulted in plenty. If there are still problems in regard to distribu- tion you will never solve them unless you also have plenty to distribute, or the produc- tion that is necessary in order to solve the problem of distribution. It is a good thing to talk about food; it is something that is a primary necessity of life. Any government in any part of the world that puts emphasis on food, to make sure that food is produced to the ultimate to feed the hungry people of the world, is the type of government that gives the greatest service to all of the people of the world. In my [Mr. Studer.] constituency, Swift Current-Maple Creek, comprising 300 miles from one corner to the other, there is at the present time an abun- dance not only of food but of oil and minerals -even dinosaurs are being taken out of the ground, which may or may not mean any- thing, according to some scientists' interpreta- tion. We have some manufacturing, but the great emphasis is on food in the southwest corner of Saskatchewan, and in Swift Current-Maple Creek. Food is vital; food is a necessity. The question most often asked in the whole world is, when do we eat, and what do we eat? In my constituency there are 16,500 square miles of land, comprising 10i million acres, practically all of which is under cultivation or used for ranching, and which provides an abundance of food, if nature is kind to us, which is of value because it creates national wealth that others may distribute throughout the length and breadth of this country. Although we have heard of drought, of dust and of all the evils of the 1930's in that part of the country, no part of the world has recuperated faster than southwestern Sas- katchewan has. And this area, above all other areas in western Canada that suffered from drought in the past, is in the best posi- tion this year to understand the situation because we have suffered much from years of drought in that part of Canada. We have taken advantage of the policies of the federal government in such matters as the Prairie Farm Assistance Act and the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and all the other services provided by the federal government, and we have recuperated in that part of the country on a basis that we hope will be permanent. Therefore, in words that I hope all of us can understand, Mr. Speaker, and that you may like, I should like to present the production of Swift Current-Maple Creek in the form of a menu, a menu which we, the people of Swift Current-Maple Creek as producers, can place on the tables of 250,000 Cana- dians 365 days a year, produced from that land of over 10 million acres. For break- fast we off er you not a commodity that is manufactured but the ingredients that go into the commodity. For breakfast we offer you porridge made from the finest of oats for the finest people on earth, with milk and cream from the Jersey and Ayrshire and Hol- stein herds that are second to none. We off er you bacon from the leanest Yorkshires and Tamworths in the whole country. We offer you eggs from the finest flocks of Leghorns, Barred Rocks and New Hampshires in the country that any man would care to see, west of the Ottawa valley. We offer you toast made from the best wheat grown any- where, and we give you honey that has won JANUARY 19, 1955 prizes in Toronto and Saskatchewan last year and this year, honey produced by the busiest bees in Canada. For lunch we offer you, Mr. Speaker, roast leg of lamb and scalloped potatoes, from potatoes that weigbed tbree pounds this year. We off er you rye rolls made from grain and rye grown in tbe grain and rye fields of my constituency. We off er you butter wbicb is the finest made in creameries tbroughout the length and breadth of this area. We offer you crabapple jelly made fromn the Dolgo crab of my constituency, and there is none better in Canada. By tbe way, I produced 1,200 bushels of apples on my farm this year, and I hope in the future to produce about 3,000 bushels. We also won the trophy in the Saskatchewan fruit show this year. But that is not ail. We now offer you dinner, and first as an aperitif we will offer you rye and water. We bave lots of rye in that country. We off er you a choice of sirloin of beef or broad-breasted turkey, such as are grown nowhere else in Canada. We offer you vegetables wbicb are grown with a minimum amount of moisture. Anytbing grown with a minimum of moisture is of bigh quality, be it wheat, beef or vegetables. We off er you tomatoes and also macaroni made fromn Durum wheat grown in my constituency and, as the pièce de résistance, Saskatoon berry pie. If you have not eaten it you have not lived. That is wbat we as producers place on the tables oft 250,000 Canadian families 365 days a year. The only reason I mention this is to indicate that the import- ance of agriculture in this country cannot be overestimated. Over and above that wheat and beef required by the 250,000 families, we can suppiy more than a million people in Canada, because my constituency is one of the greatest and best -agricultural areas in Canada. I said I was going to talk of some of the good things in this country, after hearing about all of the bad things. One of the greatest encouragements came to my desk this morning that anyone could ever bave. After listening to the socialist speeches in the House of Commons, I found on my desk this morning one o! the socialist papers, whicb is printed in Saskatcbewan. It is called the Commonwealth. Here is the headline: "Figures show big growtb in Saskatchewan economy." Can you beat that? How can we talk about difficulties in Canada-and we have difficulties-bhow can the socialists and others talk as they bave been when their own paper denies what they have said? Irrespective of that, there are difficulties in agriculture. Agri- culture bas neyer been in existence anywhere wben it was in the saine position as other The Address-Mr. Studer industries. Everyone knows of the vagaries of nature, the conditions under which we operate, the inability to control prices of any kind. We are subi ect to every condition that can react against us. Irrespective of the fact that these figures show a growth in Saskatchewan economy, I amrn ot suggesting that there is flot; room for improvement in agriculture in Saskat- chewan. We have made some advances i agriculture in regard to some stabillzed prices, especially in regard to wheat. Let us hold what we have. We should at least support a governmnent that bas influence throughout the world with the trading nations of the world. Let us support that government which bas the only system that can hold that advance. We have to trade with the people of the world because we cannot create an economy of our own. We cannot continue indefinitely to pay subsidjes to one group at the expense of another, because if we do so we will have to take money from one group and pay it to another, thereby diminisbing the purchasing power of certain sections of the population. We do not want subsidies. We want to expand the economic wealth of the country and raise the standard of living throughout the dominion and, incidentally, transmit that standard of living to other countries. There are other important industries in Canada but none of them are as important as agriculture because it means the production of food. You must first eat, and there is nothing else you can do if you do not eat. In this bouse we have 23 lonesome farm representatives, 23 who are endeavouring to flght perhaps the greatest battie that any group of men could take on, and they are fighting that battle for the benefit of the agricultural industry without which ail the rest of our organizations, our standard of living and our social services must deterio- rate. Therefore, when we hear hon. members in this bouse talking about cattie, hogs, poultry, and the need for floor prices and parity prices under the agricultural support act, these hon. members are actually speaking on behaîf of us alI. They are talking about your future because tbey are advocating poicies tbat will guarantee your future. Once agri- culture goes asunder, then ahl the industries of Canada will fail asunder. Purchasing power wlll be disrupted. Every member of this bouse and ail the people throughout Canada will be guaranteed food and will continue to eat if hon. memibers will in turn guaran- tee the agricultural industry its demands. This industry bas neyer asked too mucb, tbough it bas always been in a position wbere HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Studer it is deficient. We always hear about legisla- tion in regard to subsidies to farmers. But if farmers ask for that sort of assistance it is because they are short, and it is in order to keep their industry alive and in full pro- duction that they ask for these things. We do not ask for anything we do not think is necessary and we do not ask any more than other sectors of industry in Canada. But we want to guarantee that we are going to continue to have a high standard of living, to which as Canadian citizens we are all entitled, so that we will all be able to meet the trials and tribulations that lie ahead. We are now wondering how to accomplish this. I do not know of any method of deter- mining what percentage of wealth is accorded to various groups within the economy. But we should determine the labour that enters into agriculture and into every other industry and then as a result of that decide what pro- portion of the Canadian people in their vari- ous groups are getting too much or too little. When there is an injustice that injustice should be corrected. We have not the talking or voting power of labour. There are 636,000 farmers in Canada and 5,530,000 workers in general industry, and the latter have the strongest bargaining and voting power. It should not only be the farmers who are asking the people of Canada to come to the assistance of the agricultural industry because we are weak and lack the necessary bargaining power. We are weak in voting power and if we had the strength there would be a different situation in Canada today. No other industry has the paramount need of stabilization that agriculture has. The farmer's share of the national wealth is extremely difficult to deter- mine. It must be remembered that the farm- er's family is also working and producing, and that is a fact that is often overlooked. The farmer's wife contributes extensively to farm operations. I have an article here written quite recently by an Ontario economist who estimated that the services of the farmer's wife were worth approximately $69,000 over a period of 40 years, provided she was normally industri- ous-and most farmers' wives have to be. A western economist puts the figure at approximately $173,000. That works out at approximately $4,000 per year. That is not too great a figure when we come to consider what should be the farmer's share of the national wealth. If commissions are appointed here in Canada, then I think one of the most impor- tant tasks to be undertaken by such a body [Mr. Studer.] would be the determination of what share of the national wealth should be accorded to each of our major industries. If we can deter- mine that, then we do not need to listen through thousands of speeches in the House of Commons. We do not have to take things for granted. We do not have to read news- paper articles with regard to the actual con- ditions which govern the economy of Canada. When this commission is set up, and I hope it will be soon, we will then be in a position in western Canada to know whether or not we are having a share of the national wealth equal to that offered to other industries in the Dominion of Canada. Proof of the farmer's position is to be found in the income tax returns. Those returns show that the farmer is sixteenth on the list in regard to receipts. Fishermen are even worse, for they are seventeenth on the list. I will not mention who is at the top of the list or even comes into second place, but something should be done about the farmer's low position on that scale. As we all know, the farmer's purchases are limited by the amount of revenue he receives, and if we safeguard the farmer's interests, then we will be safeguarding our own. We have often heard references in this house to a bill of rights. And I think it is high time the farmers of this country had a bill of rights. Last year Senator Humphrey, of St. Paul, Minnesota, proposed a bill of rights, and it may interest hon. members to hear what it contained. It reads as follows: 1. The right to full equality of economic oppor- tunity. 2. The right to improved standards of rural living. 3. The right of reasonable protection against natural hazards. 4. The right to extend agricultural free enterprise through co-operative action. Mr. Argue: Tell the Liberal government that. Mr. Studer: What was that? Mr. Argue: Why not get that policy adopted now by the Liberal government? Mr. Studer: This government was not born with a silver spoon in its mouth, like some members of parliament. I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I hope I am not boasting, but I had to go out to work at the age of 12 and I have been working ever since, doing a man's work and providing something which is of value to this country. I did not have a socialist, university educa- tion handed to me on a platter. I was not born in a log cabin, and I was not born in JANUARY 19, 1955 a sod shack, but my parents moved into one as soon as they could afford it. The bill of rights continues: 5. The right to public co-operation and assistance in saving the soil. 6. The right to preserve the social and human values of family farming. 7. The right to decent land tenure which would encourage the desirable goal of farm ownership. Try that in Saskatchewan. 8. The right (of a farmer) to a democratic voice in his own farm program. 9. The right to benefits of an expanding world trade. 10. The right to a long-term program of food stor- age to encourage abundance. That is the bill of rights for farmers. That is the sort of program to which we should all subscribe. That is the bill of rights every hon. member should be advocating; for again by protecting the agricultural industry we would be protecting ourselves. We have agricultural difficulties. We can- not sell wheat. But that wheat will be sold, and I believe that within eight months we will no longer be talking about the problem. We. cannot deliver to the elevator of our cnoice. But whatever our difficulties are out in Saskatchewan, they are of a temporary nature and will be corrected. Production difficulties are permanent diffi- culties existing in western Canada and par- ticularly in southwestern Saskatchewan, and those are the difficulties we wish to see elim- inated. But I would add that we also have had the problem of empty granaries in south- west Saskatchewan, rather than full ones. We also want a floor price, and a good floor price, on eggs. They talk about somebody not receiving the floor price on eggs. All the Saskatchewan government needs to do is to implement their marketing legislation, buy up all the eggs in Saskatchewan and sell them back to the federal government. There is the solution. Will they do it? I do not think that they will. It is much wiser politically not to give consideration to that solution but rather come down here to the House of Com- mons and tell the federal government what to do. Then there is the matter of the floor price on hogs. I am glad that the hon. mem- ber for Selkirk (Mr. Bryce) yesterday took up the problem of the underhog. It is about time he had his day. The only thing I think he recommended was a change in grading. From what I know I think perhaps the hon. member for Selkirk thinks there are not sufficient grades in hogs. But if he would need one more in order to sell his product, I think we should enter another grade of hogs and it would be called the razorback class. The Address-Mr. Studer Some of the solutions are right at the so- cialists' back door. But will they take them? No, they will not, because talk is cheaper. One of the difficulties in Canada is taxes. We have our provincial taxes. As you know, we have a provincial treasurer in-Saskatche- wan. His name is Fines; and everybody knows that we are fined for everything in Saskatchewan. We also have our federal taxes. We have the greatest tax, which is for national defence, and who is more re- sponsible for the tax for national defence than are these socialists and their cohorts? Why? Because in the Regina manifesto they stipulate that they will not rest content until this system under which they have lived and prospered shall be eradicated. And the other reason why that national defence expenditure is incurred is on account of their cohorts, wherever they may be in the world. Listen to this: Thirty-five years ago Lenin made a prophecy that "first we will take eastern Europe; then the masses of Asia; then we will encircle the United States of America, which will be the last bastion of capitalism. We will not have to attack it because it will fall like an over-ripe fruit into our hands . . . " Again, in 1930 Dmitri Z. Manuilsky, who later presided over the United Nations security council in 1949, when addressing the international students at the Lenin school of political warfare in Moscow came out with the somewhat astonishing "war to the hilt between communism and capitalism is inevitable. Today, of course. we are not strong enough to attack. Our time will come in twenty or thirty years. To win we shall need the element of surprise. The bourgeoisie will have to be put to sleep. So we shall begin by launching the most spectacular peace movement on record. There will be electrifying overtures and unheard of conces- sions. The capitalist countries, stupid and decadent, will rejoice to co-operate in their own destruction. They will leap at another chance to be friends. Assoon as their guard is down, we shall smash them with our clenched fist". That is why you have to have a defence program in Canada. That statement has never been repudiated. The Regina manifesto has never been repudiated. I wish some good honest-to-God socialist would stand up in this House of Commons and repudiate that whole thing. Then we shall be able to conduct our- selves here in this country on a basis of peace with al people of the world. What is the policy or the idea behind these socialists? You will remember that last year, when we were having the debate on amend- ment to the Criminal Code, they had an ob- jection. What was their objection? Every one of them was endeavouring to have the penalty for sedition lowered from 15 years to 5 years. We spent almost a week on that matter. Why? If I am a traitor to this country that has given me my living and if HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Studer I advocate sedition and I am biting the hand that feeds me, why should I get only 5 years? Why should I not be hanged? An hon. Member: That is right. Mr. Studer: Mr. Speaker, where do they stand? If and when communism knocks at our door, whom are they going to support? Are they going to support this system which they are pledged to eradicate or are they going to support the communistic system to which they give a little bit of lip service once in a while and condemn in a mild manner on occasion? I have never heard an anti-communist speech in this house or in any other house by these socialists since they have been in this House of Commons. I have never heard a good soul-shaking anti- communist speech by them, and you never will as long as they are associated with those with whom they are associated. We also have federal taxation but we get something for it. Out in Saskatchewan the only thing you receive for your taxes is more taxes. In Canada here we pay taxes. Certainly we pay federal taxes, but we receive something for them. What do we receive? We receive veterans pensions for our taxes. We receive old age assistance for our taxes. We receive family allowances, old age security, national health, disability pensions and blind pensions. We receive the safeguarding of the nation, the administration of the country, the maintaining of floor prices, the Agricultural Prices Support Act, the bonuses and the subsidies, subsidies on farm feed, railway subsidies, trans-Canada high- way, housing loans, farm improvement loans, farm loan board, Veterans Land Act, veterans pensions, unemployment insurance and so on and so forth. I should also mention disability pensions. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) the other day made mention of how this disability pension came about. A little girl in Sherbrooke wrote the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) such a pathetic letter that the Prime Minister just had to inaugurate this disability pension. That is the first time I ever heard any socialist admit that they were not respon- sible for all pensions. I would suggest to the socialists that they get into harness, get out of this House of Commons and earn some of the production that they wish to distribute among the people of the world. But in Saskatchewan they just live on capitalistic production. They live on capitalistic money that is paid into Saskatchewan. As it appeared in Hansard last year, the amount of money that is spent [Mr. Studer.] in Saskatchewan by the federal government, irrespective of the production of it, is over $139 million. That money the socialists are using in order to promote socialism. If they had to live on socialist policy and had to produce their own wealth in Saskatchewan, every one of them would be in the poor- house. There is no question about it; every one of them would be there. They are liv- ing on capitalistic money in the province of Saskatchewan and capitalistic money has been keeping them in existence in Saskat- chewan. Once that capitalistic money is withdrawn, then of course their bubble is burst. There is no question about that. But do not expect anything else in Saskatchewan because few of the socialist leaders know the value of a dollar. Any person who has not earned a dollar by the sweat of his brow does not know the value of it. Hence from this non-producing element that is in existence out in Saskatchewan you can con- tinue to expect higher and higher taxes until our farmers are taxed off the land. That is one of the great overheads that the land carries at the present time and that the farmer has to pay, namely the overhead of taxes in the province of Saskatchewan. I want to warn the rest of the people in Canada to look into that picture in Saskat- chewan before Quebec or any province adopts socialism. So they are living off capitalistic money. How did the socialists get that way? I will tell you how they got that way. How did they become socialists? You will remember that back in 1933 a book came out, published by Dale Carnegie, I believe. It said some- thing about trying to win friends and influence people. Every socialist in Sas- katchewan read that book and he used it to advantage, so much so that they almost wrote a book of their own, they did not call it "How to Win Friends and Influence People". That was the original title, "How to Win Friends and Influence People". They entitled their manuscript "How to Win Votes and Fleece People". You see the result in evidence every year since they have been here. The best times that Canada ever had were the times when there was the smallest number of socialists in this House of Com- mons and that was in the period from 1949 to 1953. As long as the people of Canada send socialists to this House of Commons who are pledged to destroy this system, we shall have the customary result. Why do they say that we should follow a capitalistie country, the United States of America, in our contributions to Colombo? Why do they not present to us for comparison a socialistic country? If they are against the capitalist JANUARY 19, 1955 system one would think they would never refer to it; but all they are interested in is to keep in office and to keep financing on capitalistic money. The day is coming when they will not continue to exist. You have heard of the communistic slogan: "Workers of the world, unite; you have nothing to lose but your chains." The socialists have a slogan too. Their slogan is: "Irresponsible socialists of the world, unite; you have nothing to lose but your brains". We have heard some speeches in the house in which objection was taken to the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) kissing babies. I hope the Prime Minister continues to kiss babies as long as he is Prime Minister and long afterwards because he kissed babies long before he was ever Prime Minister. I like a person at the head of our government who does not have to make an effort to do some- thing that he has not been accustomed to doing all the days of his life. I like people at the head of our government who are family men and not people who ridicule family men. If the hon. member for Van- couver East (Mr. Winch) thinks he can make little men big by making big men little, that has never happened yet in the history of the world and never will. I come to another friend of ours in the ranks of the socialists, the hon. member for Kindersley (Mr. Johnson). You will re- member that last year a heifer was lost some- where in the city of Ottawa which was threatening to destroy the whole city and our hero came to the rescue with a rope. It was like David and Goliath. David wound up his sling-shot and hit a bull's-eye. My hon. friend wound up his rope, let fly and missed the heifer. I do not blame him too much because I think there is something wrong with the hon. member's eyesight. I think he is suffering from myopia. During the past summer he was at a provincial C.C.F. con- vention in Saskatoon and he made a speech to the convention. He is reported in the Leader-Post of July 21, 1954, as having said: I went to Ottawa expecting to see the benches filled with intelligent faces. I was disappointed. I would say that the bon. member, sitting in the back row as he does, would not be able to see much f urther than the front socialist benches directly in front of him, and I think his statement was well founded. In any event he would not have been able to see any further than the bon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) because that member was standing up all the time. If my count is correct that member rose to his feet 700 times in the last session. I think the hon. member for Kindersley is suffering from myopia. I know that the hon. member The Address-Mr. Studer for Winnipeg North Centre is suffering from athlete's foot. You can imagine that as soon as disability pensions were passed both these men would put themselves in a position where they would eventually be recipients .of it. We have also had some speeches by mem- bers of the official opposition. I would refer to them as a paper opposition. I do not mean that they are not worth the paper their speeches are written on; I mean that if you read today's papers you will find out what the opposition is going to say tomorrow. That is why I call them a paper opposition. Inasmuch as that is their policy, I suggest that they take ten newspaper editors from across Canada who have been picked at ran- dom, put them in the front benches, and they will do a cracking good job. In fact you could pick ten members of the press gallery at random, put them in those front seats and they would do a very good job for the opposition. But they will not have to do that. Why? Because we Liberals form our own opposition right within our ranks. That is why the opposition's case is hopeless. We form our own opposition within our own ranks. We guide and advise, reject and add, and ad- monish our government, so that it is the type of government against which the opposition has about as much effect as the waves around the rock of Gibraltar. But they can improve, and we hope that they do and will eventually make some contribution to the people of Canada. I think my time is about up, much to the regret of the socialists perhaps, but I want to mention one more thing that should be put into effect in Canada. There should be qualifications for members of parliament. Some hon. Members: Hear, hear. Mr. Studer: That would leave me out, I am sure, but that would be expected. You have qualifications for members for school districts and school boards. You have qualifications for municipal administration and for city administration. You have qualifications all the way from the lowest form of government with the exception that when you come to the highest you can be elected a member of par- liament as long as you are not in jail. That is one reason why there are so many socialists here. Since the indemnity has been increased, I think there should be qualifications estab- lished for members of parliament so that we will eliminate those from our public life who are professional politicians. Let us eliminate those who have no stake in the country ex- cept a political stake, and this is my reason. Go back through history and see what hap- pened so far as the advancing or retarding of humanity is concerned. 342 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Studer What stake did Hitler have in Germany So this Liberal governrent and ail other except a political stake? What stake did Mus- governments having Liberal policies have fed, solini have in Italy except a political stake? ciothed, housed and provided health and What stake did Lenin have, what stake did guaranteed freedom to more people than any Stalin have, what stake did Karl Marx or other system on earth. We wish to extend Engels have or any of these individuals? these benefits to ail people on earth. We want What stake did they have in their countries to extend the corporal works of rercy. We except a political stake? Therefore I suggest want to feed the hungry, ciothe the naked, that every member of parliament should have shelter the horeless, take care of the sick. certain qualifications. He should have a job, As long as that is the objective of the Liberal an occupation, farming, or a vocation, and if government and party, I hope that by word, he does not spend six months of the year at action and example I can always be found it he should not be permitted to be a member worthy to be considered as one of them. of parliament. Then there would be no more Mr. H. R. Argue (Assinboia): I intend this socialists here. After all, the socialists in afternoon, Mr. Speaker, to make bome refer- Saskatchewan are nothing more or less than once to dominion-provincial relations, and socialist profiteers, socialist middlemen reap- particularly th announcerent made the day ing a profit from the expenditure of dominion beforo yesterday by the Prime Ministor government money in the province. We can (Mr. St. Laurent). get along without them just as the socialists Before going on to deronstrate, as say we can get along without other middle- I believo 1 can, that the government's poiicy men. is one that is a disservice to Canada, I wish I was going to talk about unemployment to say that I wolcore the announcement in but there is not enough time except to say, the speech fror the throne that arendments what do the socialists do when there is unem- are to be made to the War Veterans Allowance ,ployment? The only socialist country I know Act. I have had the privilego over a numbor of that deals with it in any way is Russia, of years of adding rY voice to thoso of and if there are people unemployed there they members on ail sides of the house cailing are either put in the army or sent to Siberia. upon the government to make a substantial What is the socialists' solution? I have not increase in the burnt-out pension or, to be heard it. We are pledged to eliminate the more correct, the war veterans allowanco. cancer of unemployment-and I claim it is a We in the C.C.F. support the derand of cancer-from society when it occurs. I also the Canadian Legion that the war vcterans think that the workers in industry should be ailowance shouid be increased from the greater sharers in industry. I cannot see present figure of $50 in the case of a single that strikes will be eliminated or that we will man and $90 in the case of a married ran to eliminate the conflict with respect to the $60 for a single man and $120 for a married sharing of the national wealth unless that ran. We ail agree that allowablo income is done. ceiiings shouid be raised from $720 single to Our government has the responsibilities. It $1,200 single, and from $1,200 married to is not assisted by rabble rousers or socialist $2,000 married. malcontents. I do not think there is anything Further we in this group see no roason like a rabble rouser in Canada. But we do why the veteran should not be given the have to strike a balance in government. Living benefit of an additionai $40 a month whon in the world, I say that as an exporting nation he reaches the age of 70 and is eligiblo for we are dependent not on our own policies te oid age security pension. We believe that alone but on the policies of 73 other countries it is unfair and unjust for this governent in the world with which we trade. So we Lo single out the veterans of Canada and wish to strike a balance. I hope I have con- discririnate against them by reducing the tributed to that balance in endeavouring to arount of the war veterans allowance when speak not only of the bad things, the things those veterans becore eligible for the old age we wish to eliminate in this world, but also security pension. of some of the good things that it has been During the war years and immediateiy fol- our privilege as Canadian citizens to enjoy. iowing the governmont held out to the people I am in favour of Liberal policies not only in of Canada the promise of a new social order. Canada but throughout the whole world and The late prime rinister, the Right Hon. when that comes about you will have one W. L. Mackenzie King, had proposais which world with the power of production, which is he set before the people of Canada and which essential, and a solution of the problem of dis- be maintained would resuit in full orpioy- tribution which will guarantee every man on ment, including greater social security earth his right to live and his fair share of the measures and the national heaith prograr. weaith off the whoie world. Ho went further and said that the proposais [Mr. Studer.] JANUARY 19, 1955 would include adequate guaranteed prices for agricultural products. The late prime minister pointed out that farmers in this country had accepted lower prices during the war, and that they should therefore be guaranteed adequate prices after the war. He also said that if his government were returned to power he would undertake the steps neces- sary to see that all the provinces of Canada had the financial means to discharge their constitutional responsibilities. Of the principles outlined, the principle that agriculture should have guaranteed prices bas been the first casualty. The Liberal gov- ernment came back to power in Canada in 1935 and has been in power ever since, and the figures put out by the dominion bureau of statistics show that today agriculture is back in the position it was in the late thirties. Figures from the dominion bureau of statis- tics show that farm cost of production today, based on 1935-1939 equalling 100, is 238-7. But the price level of farm products is only 220-1. In other words the farmers' cost- price relationship, according to the figures of the dominion bureau of statistics, is even worse today than it was in 1935-1939, when we were still in the depths of a depression. If you want to know why there is unemploy- ment in Canada, if you want to know why farmers are having difficulty in meeting their obligations, you can see the answer in the figures I have just quoted. We had expected as a result of Liberal promises and commitments that agriculture would be guaranteed adequate prices after the war, because of the low prices accepted during the war. Under the policy of the present government not only are the so-called floor prices inadequate, they do not operate at all. On December 6 last, speaking to the domin- ion-provincial conference, the Minister of Agriculture made a public confession that his floor price under eggs was not operating. He said the floor price was 38 cents a dozen, and the producer should be entitled to at least 32 cents a dozen. He quoted figures showing that farmers at Edmonton get 30 cents a dozen, at Winnipeg 27 cents a dozen and at London 37 cents a dozen. The govern- ment not only bas not adequate floor prices for agricultural products, but the floor prices as set are paper floor prices, phony floor prices, and just so much fiction in the words of the Minister of Agriculture himself. At the dominion-provincial conference he ad- mitted that the farmers were not receiving those prices. Much has been said about the condition of the wheat producers and the wheat industry in this country. The Minister of Trade and The Address-Mr. Argue Commerce is always very optimistic. He has said time after time that exports in the cur- rent crop year were going away up, that sales were improving, and that there would be very little difficulty. I believe the trend is toward improvement, but not the way the Minister of Trade and Commerce bas pointed out. The latest weekly publication issued by the board of grain com- missioners for the period August 1, 1954, to January 5, 1955, shows that during that period we exported 99.6 million bushels, whereas during the same period of last year we exported 99.7 million bushels of wheat. This year to date exports are as low as last year, and last year was not a good year. So far as exports and sales of Canadian wheat are concerned, we can only hope that the trend is toward improvement. Farm marketings of wheat this year are away down, from 230.9 million bushels a year ago to just 111.7 million bushels during the present period. Do not let anyone tell you that the main reason western farmers are short of cash today is that they have had a crop failure. The truth is that the western farmer has not been able to market even the small quantities of grain he has threshed. When the present crop year ends the majority of farmers will probably have little grain on their farms. The farmer has been able to keep the elevators filled, and the main reason he has no money is that market- ings are down, coupled with the additional fact that the price-cost relationship is ad- verse. We have in Ottawa today a delegation representing the farm unions of Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. This morning they made a well documented sub- mission to the cabinet requesting, among other things, that the farmers be given ade- quate support prices, that they be given parity prices for wheat sold in Canada, and adequate floor prices for wheat sold on the inter- national market. Every important wheat producing country in the world today guarantees a support price to its wheat producers; and if one looks over the wheat support prices of the various coun- tries of the world he sees that the Canadian position is bad indeed. It is right at the bottom of the list. The Argentine wheat pro- ducer is guaranteed $2.72 a bushel. The Australian wheat producer gets $1.55 a bushel on domestic wheat, plus a cost of production floor on export wheat. The farmer in Spain is guaranteed $2.73 a bushel, in Japan $2.53, in Greece $2.45, in France $2.95, in Belgium $2.49, in Sweden $2.28, in Turkey $2.28 to $3, in the United Kingdom $2.22, in the United States $2.24 and in West Germany $2.72 to HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Argue $2.83 a bushel. Canada has the lowest guar- anteed price of all, only $1.40 a bushel at Fort William, which means an effective price to the farmer of about $1.20 for No. 2 northern wheat at his local elevator marketing point. There are three facts about the Canadian wheat picture we should not forget. The first is that the Canadian wheat grower produces the best wheat in the world, but under a Liberal government he is condemned to the highest cost of living in the world and the lowest guaranteed price in the free world. I say that the attitude of the Canadian gov- ernment as expressed in its treatment of the wheat producers is shameful. No wonder the farmers of western Canada, through their farm unions and other organizations, are con- sidering once again a mass movement on Ottawa to try to impress upon this anti-farm government the need to increase the support price on Canadian wheat. It is a shame that Canada, one of the wealthiest if not the wealthiest country per capita in the world, should pay its wheat producers the lowest guaranteed price. The agricultural policy of this government is definitely and decidedly against the interests of the producers, and does not in any way give the farmers the guaranteed floor price they were promised by the late prime minister, Mackenzie King, at a time when agriculture was taking such low prices during the period of the war. We in the C.C.F. believe that the principles laid down in the original dominion-provincial conference following the war were good. We believe that Canadians in every province of Canada are entitled to a basic minimum stand- ard of services. We believe that dominion- provincial agreements are necessary if the government is going to adopt the financial policies necessary in order to maintain full employment. We believe such agreements would be of assistance in connection with the other things proposed to the original con- ference. We are sorry now that this gov- ernment is set against implementing those im- portant financial and social security measures. The late prime minister, Mackenzie King, said that just as soon as a sufficient number of provinces signed the taxation agreement he would implement the various social security and full employment measures proposed. But with the present Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) the policy was changed. Hon. D. C. Abbott, who was minister of finance in December of 1950, said then that even though all the provinces were to sign a taxation agreement the federal government was not committed to anything in any other field. [Mr. Argue.] The government today has demonstrated by its actions that it will not undertake the measures necessary to provide full employ- ment. When the then minister of finance made his budget speech in the House of Commons in the 1954 session he forecast that the real wealth production of Canada would not go up in the coming year. The real wealth production of this country, because of the increasing population and the improve- ments in technology, should go up by at least 5 per cent every year. Instead of going up by 5 per cent it is forecast that the gross national product is likely to go down to the extent of some $500 million. Even allowing for a poor crop in western Canada, the fact remains that because we did not have full employment in Canada we lost during 1954 approximately $1,200 million in wealth pro- duction. That $1,200 million represents suf- ficient wealth to provide a health insurance program, to increase family allowances and to provide stabilized prices for agricultural products. But the government bas allowed production to go down and the people of Canada to lose $1,200 million worth of wealth production. The day before yesterday the Prime Minis- ter announced unilaterally some of the results of the taxation negotiations he has had with the premier of Quebec. Ordinarily one expects that when two governments have been making negotiations, any tabling of documents or statements made will be made concurrently. But the federal government made its announcement one day; and the premier of Quebec did not bother making one at all, and did not table the letters until the following day. I may have some criticisms to make of the premier of Quebec, but certainly I will not malign him to the extent the Prime Minister did, according to a report in the Montreal Gazette, when he made the statement that Canada's prosperity and growth pleased everyone except countries behind the iron curtain and some people in Quebec. I may criticize the premier of Quebec, but I shall never criticize him in those terms; because even though I disagree violently with the stand taken by the premier of Quebec, I say those terms should not be used in relation to a premier of any province in Canada elected by democratic vote. Mr. Dufresne: Why do you disagree with him? Is it just because you are a socialist? Mr. Argue: Oh, that is about as sensible an interruption as the remarks of the pre- vious speaker, which lasted some 40 minutes. I do not think such a question requires an answer. JANUARY 19, 1955 Mr. Dufresne: You cannot give it. Mr. Argue: The statement by the Prime Minister of Canada in which he said that the Canadian income tax law would be amended to reduce the federal tax by 10 per cent in Quebec means, in my opinion, a complete surrender by the federal government of Canada to Premier Duplessis in Quebec. We were told by the Prime Minister that the 10 per cent reduction represents just about the same amount of money that will be collected by the 15 per cent tax in the way it is applied in the province of Quebec. Now Canada has to go back to the kind of taxation situationthat existed before the war, when taxes varied from one province to another. We have all the ill effects, double taxation and differing taxation, and I am extremely disappointed that the federal government of Canada has yielded to the premier of Quebec in this way. It is a dis- service to Canada. Mr. Dufresne: You admit that he was smart, anyway. Mr. Argue: As a nation we are going to suffer from this policy, because it demon- strates that the government has forgotten about the principles enunciated in the dominion-provincial conference following the war. It shows conclusively that this govern- ment is not prepared to take those fiscal, taxation and economic measures that are necessary to guarantee full employment and full prosperity. The result of this reversal of policy and attitude is shown in the fact that in 1954 Canadians lost $1,200 million of wealth production that should have been obtained. It shows that this government has now abandoned the idea of a social security program that would- include health insurance. I believe the health insurance proposal, in the original conferences, was one of the most important proposais. The announcement of the Prime Minister demonstrates that he is now surrendering even his plan of a health insurance program. The proposals in the original dominion- provincial conferences would have made it possible for Canadians living in ail provinces of Canada to have a minimum basic standard of provincial services. The provinces have not the taxation resources necessary to fulfil their duties under the Canadian constitution. The revenues of the federal government amount to $4,500 million a year. The revenues of all ten provinces in Canada combined amount to only some $1,400 million a year, and the combined revenues of all the municipal governments in Canada, both rural The Address-Mr. Argue and urban, amount to some $900 million a year. Therefore, out of the revenue dollar the federal government takes 73 cents, the provinces have 17 cents and all municipal governments have is 10 cents. There is the reason the federal government needs to provide increased grants and measures to enable the provinces to meet their very important obligations under the constitution. One of their most important obligations is the provision of educational services; another of their most important obligations is the provision of roads which is a vital service in this nation today. The United States government recognized the necessity for an adequate road program as far back as 1912 and, provided grants to the states for the building of roads. Today the United States has a good road system and President Eisen- hower has proposed that congress provide $101 billion for roads in the United States in the next ten years. If the federal govern- ment of Canada did the same thing on a per capita basis it would provide $909 million a year toward the building of roads. The only item in the estimates provides the magnificent sum of $15 million for the trans-Canada highway. The amount should be $909 million a year if the Canadian government was to make the same contribu- tion to roads on a per capita basis. But ours is a much larger country than is the United States. If the Canadian government were to undertake a road program that would give us the same type of roads, no doubt it would cost a great deal more. Our govern- ment should give serious consideration to providing immediately adequate grants for the building of roads in various parts of the dominion. The United States grants are not just for super highways or even just for ordinary highways in the states, but are for assistance in building every single mile of road in the United States of any consequence whatsoever, even farm to market roads and roads for local school buses. Rural municipalities in Canada, even urban municipalities, where a highway goes through a city, find the provi- sion of adequate roads an impossibility. The reason municipalities are unable to provide adequate roads in Canada is that the tax base in a municipality is so narrow. Municipalities derive almost ail of their reve- nue from taxation on real property, and the taxation on land and urban properties for roads and for education is becoming almost unbearable in every single province of Can- ada. If there is an important political issue that is the same in each and every one of the provinces it is this matter of inadequate HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Argue roads, high land taxation and the inability of municipalities to provide roads on their meagre taxation base. The same thing is true with respect to adequate educational services. Any country in the world that prides itself on being a democracy and being progressive should pro- vide adequate moneys to create equal educa- tional opportunites for all the young people of that nation. We know the attitude of the premier of Quebec toward university grants. He will not take them. When the hon. mem- ber for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight) advocates that the federal government make grants for the provision of equal opportunities for education on the public and high school level, this government allows the attitude of the premier of Quebec to influence it to the point that it says no, we will not make grants for education in Canada. The result is a lowered standard of education in many provinces. I come back to the statement I made earlier, that the Prime Minister had sur- rendered-yes almost unconditionally-to Premier Duplessis, as was clearly demon- strated in the statement he made in the house the day before yesterday. He has not only surrendered on the matter of taxation agree- ments, but he has surrendered to the leader of nationalist ideas, Premier Duplessis, to the point that he says, "No educational grants. We will let the children of Canada suffer from unequal educational opportunity." This attitude is a shame. I would like to see the federal government, in the dominion-provincial conferences that are coming up, return to its original princi- ples which were presented to the dominion- provincial conference after the war, and even at this late date undertake measures that will provide full employment, and an adequate social security system; and that will mean health insurance now. I hope they will adopt measures that will provide adequate guar- anteed floor prices and a fair share of the national income for agriculture, and which will grant to each and every provincial gov- ernment in Canada the financial resources to carry out its responsibilities under the Cana- dian constitution. I do not think the attitude of the premier of Quebec should be allowed to condemn 15 million Canadians to suffer such things as high hospital bills, and high doctors' bills; to cause 15 million Canadians to go without adequate roads and adequate educational op- portunities, and the Canadian nation to lose $1,200 million of wealth production in one year. Again I make the statement that the Cana- dian government should stop sacrificing the well-being of 15 million Canadians on the [Mr. Argue.] altar of ultranationalism; and, if that state- ment be considered too strong, I suggest hon. members read the Prime Minister's statement to the Reform club in Quebec last September. Mr. John B. Hamilton (York West): Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to get to my feet so early in this session because I am sure the general rule about being seen and not heard is as applicable to new members of this house as it is to small children. But times have changed. I know that my two daughters have a great deal more to say than their parents had, so perhaps I may be permitted some slight deviation from the golden rule of silence. I must admit I have been perplexed as to just what opening remarks I might make. I have no desire to make an evangelical speech of condemnation and denunciation. Neither have I any desire to offer wholesale congrat- ulations to the government. Let us face it. As a member of the opposition, that group without which no government can operate efficiently, it is my duty to point out what I consider the shortcomings and deficiencies of this government, and I am prepared to say that this privilege only exists if such criticism can be constructive and a sound alternative offered. Criticism, of course, either constructive or otherwise, can fall on deaf ears. My leader has conferred upon this government a diplorna characterizing them as the greatest free traders of all time. I would confer upon them a degree "in mutual admiration". Per- haps they cannot be blamed for the fact that such a degree can be conferred upon them, because 20 years in office bas convinced them that there is no alternative to their type of government. I believe there is an alternative, and to express my views I might even have to use such unmentionable terms as tariffs, protec- tion, and free enterprise. What are the problems that face us today? Certainly by far the most important is unem- ployment. I agree with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gregg) that there is no magic formula which can put an end to unemploy- ment. But if unemployment were as regional and seasonal as the speech frorn the throne suggests, then I believe the magic formula of government handouts would do the trick. I am sure the Minister of Labour knows as well as we do that the situation now confront- ing us is much more serious than that. I know that in West York unemployment is greater today than it has been since the de- pression, and I do not need the benefit of information from the dominion bureau of statistics to convince me of that fact. JANUARY 19, 1955 But now that we have criticized, have we anything to offer by way of solution? First of all, conditions can only be improved if all three partners in the free enterprise system join in a common program. But who are they? First, labour; second, manage- ment or industry; and third, the government. Each has a vital role to play. To the workingman I would say that we cannot compete for the world's markets with- but getting more for our production dollar. Let me make it qui-te clear that I do not believe wages are too high. Far from it. But if businessmen are asked to devise better and more efficient methods of production, to reduce production costs, then I think labour too must join in the same program to see that greater productivity results from each man's daily job. To management I would say that on you must fall the major burden of achieving the highest production at the lowest cost. Produc- tion methods must be constantly under study. The introduction of "automation" in plant equipment, it appears, must more and more be emphasized. New sales techniques must be tried and new markets sought to free us from dependence upon the United States. Industry has achieved a great deal, but there appears to be an ever-increasing tendency to ask for government assistance even on small matters. Leaders of business must realize that if the government is asked for assistance there can be no satisfactory answer if the government asks for control. And this government shows no reluctance in accepting the principle of controlling every phase of economic life in this country if it is given the opportunity. I might bring this thought to the special attention of bank presidents, whose lengthy reports I read annually. If the country's credit requirements cannot be met without government guarantees, then tighter and tighter government administrative control can be the only result, ending ultimately in government control of every phase of banking. What could the government do to relieve unemployment other than the pump-priming job it is doing? I believe it could do a great deal, but this government has done nothing. We do not recommend high tariffs and protection, but we do ask for an end to the naïve program of binding us under trade agreements to nations which are not playing under the same rules. The problem is just as simple as that. We choose up sides and we are ready to kick off, when we are in- formed that our opponent has just built a brick wall on the 20-yard line. With that system the best we can ever do is kick single The Address-Mr. J. B. Hamilton points. The touchdowns will always be against us; and is that not just what our government has allowed to happen? Our two biggest customers, the United States and Britain, have allowed our goods entry or refused entry as they saw fit, regardless of the GATT agreement. I say to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Harris) that if industry is called upon to cut down costs, to improve production techniques, and to economize, then I think it has the right to say to this government: "You economize, improve your methods and reduce your taxa- tion program in the same proportion that you have asked us to reduce our prices to get into the world markets." Surely it is not too much to ask this government to reduce its over-all expenditure in the same proportion that has been achieved in the United States in the last couple of years. This government could help further if it took another look at what I consider to be a very artificial exchange rate on the Cana- dian dollar. It is readily apparent that the rate is not based on the world's desire for Canadian dollars for trading purposes, be- cause our adverse position in that respect has already been pointed out very forcibly by the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Flem- ing). The real deinand for Canadian dollars in the world's money market is for capital investment, and the artificially high value placed on the dollar is a real handicap to our manufacturers in their trading posi- tion. We should face this issue now because, if we do not, I shudder to think of the situa- tion looming up and what will happen when our foreign investors complete their programs of construction and start asking for their dividends. Is this not the way this government must face up to the country's unemployment prob- lem? There appears to be no alternative. What will it be? Will it be a continuation of pump-priming, a little loosening up of the purse strings on the workers' and employers' own hard-earned unemployment insurance dollars, or a cold, hard, practical approach to this greatest problem in Canada today? I think, Mr. Speaker, the spectre of unem- ployment is a far greater worry to the home owner than to any other individual in the community. The hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll) has emphasized that fact in this house, and has suggested a method of pro- tection for home owners who are buying under N.H.A. I wholeheartedly support the idea of equity of redemption insurance and, as a matter of fact, I strongly advocated such a plan during our recent by-election cam- paign in West York. 348 HOUSE OF The Address-Mr. J. B. Hamilton But the real problern facing the home owner is in his capacity as a shareholder in his municipality. That municipality is hav- ing môre and more trouble meeting its obliga- tions because of its unfortunate position in the tax source picture. I am firmly convinced that we are saddling the municipality with responsibilities far beyond its capacity. I find it very difficult to understand why real estate should be carrying almost the complete load for educational cost, police protection and other similar responsibilities. Surely these items are for the benefit of all persons, not just for the benefit of home owners. I am hoping that when the dominion-provincial conference becomes a fact, the problems of the municipality will receive serious and thorough consideration, because otherwise it is questionable if essential services can be maintained and expanded. The Minister of Finance should remember that the home owner is entitled to a tax break. His investment in a home is the largest investment of his life. It is an investment in the development of this country. It has created jobs on a greater scale than any investment in common stock in a corporation. Yet, Mr. Speaker, this government has given a tax credit of 20 per cent on dividends received from common stocks to anyone who invests in the same. I say to the Minister of Finance that it is much more important that such a tax credit should be allowed on annual pay- ments of principal on house purchases, and on realty taxes paid on the same. For example, a purchaser pays $400 in principal on his house mortgage annually, and $200 in realty taxes. Each of these amounts has created employment. It is a real investment, just the same as or more so than an investment in the common stock of one of our corporations. He should re- ceive a credit on his income tax of 20 per cent of the total amount of both principal and realty taxes paid, namely $120. If that formula is not acceptable to this government the least which should be done for the home owner is to allow the real property taxes which he pays on his home as a deduction from his total income for income tax cal- culation. I cannot close without mentioning that my constituency of West York has suffered as the result of two major disasters in this country during the past year. First, as the result of the Moose Jaw T.C.A. air crash, it lost its esteemed and highly honoured mem- ber of this house, Rodney Adamson, and his wife, Cynthia. I know this house and our party deeply feel his departure from this chamber, as he was a fine parliamentary [Mr. Hamilton (York West).] COMMONS representative. Then late in the year West York bore the brunt of "Hurricane Hazel". Loss of life and property were appalling, but our people went to work with grim determination. Their efforts and their financial contributions to the various chari- table drives have been tremendous. This sacrifice must not be in vain. Surely this disaster has brought home to this house the necessity for an adequate national civil defence set-up. This program needs more than air raid sirens. It needs an adequate permanent force, small though it may be, just as much as an army does. Let us see that we get it, because I saw municipal au- thorities working under appalling conditions which should not occur in a well organized society. (Translation): Mr. Speaker, I would have liked to deliver a good part of my speech in French, but it is already difficult enough for a new member to make his maiden speech in his native tongue without venturing into the other official language of this country. I hope to do better in the future. (Text): Mr. John Decore (Vegreville): Mr. Speaker, once again I have the privilege of rising in the house and speaking on behalf of one of the finest constituencies in Canada. May I first of all join with other members in con- gratulating the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder (Mr. Carrick) of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. The way these two hon. gentlemen acquitted themselves was certainly a credit to themselves and to the communities they represent, and was in the finest traditions of the house. When I say I have the privilege of repre- senting one of the finest areas in Canada I of course am referring to the people of the constituency. There is probably no other rural constituency in Canada wbose popula- tion is as cosmopolitan as that of Vegreville. It is indeed truc that the strength of Canada lies in her diversity. When we take Canada as a whole we find people of different back- grounds, different origins, different traditions, each of whom has something to contribute to the building of a new national Canadian cul- ture and the strengthening of this land. So I say the constituency of Vegreville is most cosmopolitan, and I think you will find there the finest example of unity because the people, regardless of their origin, are able to under- stand and get along with each other. I also feel, and this is an actual fact, that our present Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) will go down in history as the greatest promoter of unity in Canada. JANUARY 19, 1955 I listened with a great deal of interest during the course of the debate to some of the com- ments made by the hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker), and especially what he said with regard to tariffs. I wish to assure the house that the people of the province from which I come will endorse his views in this regard. Canada is the third largest trading nation in the world, being exceeded only by the United States and the United Kingdom. The well-being of this nation depends upon the volume of our trade with other countries. This is true, of course, for every section of our population. It is certainly true of western Canada, for it is essential that the people of the prairies have a market for their wheat and other agricultural products. The same is true of the fisherman, whether he be on the east coast or on the west, and the same is also true with respect to any of the workers in our factories. The fact remains that if we want other countries to buy from us the things that we have to sell, then naturally these other countries will expect that we will buy from them. For that reason high tariffs do not promote trade. Tariffs are always a barrier to trade. In view of certain restrictions that have been imposed on our exports by the United States government, I realize that some meas- ure of protection is necessary for our indus- tries. It is necessary that we promote their expansion and development and provide more opportunity for the creation of jobs for our people. But I believe the United States is at the crossroads today so far as giving economic leadership is concerned. They will have to decide, and decide soon, whether .there is to be more and freer trade among nations. In this respect Canada has had the courage and determination to give leadership in attempting to break down the barriers to such free trade. As one who represents a farming area, I sometimes find it difficult to tolerate the views held by some individuals who have a fatal- istic attitude and regard farming as though it were the worst type of occupation. On the contrary, farming is one of the finest occu- pations in which one can engage. It may be that I hold this view because I was born and raised on a farm, but the outlook of the farmer is most independent, and with the advent of modern machinery farming no longer is the drudgery that it used to be years ago. I think hon. members will agree with me that with good and careful manage- ment most people who go into farming are able to do well. But farming is also a very risky occupa- tion, and it is often very discouraging and difficult. The farmer is subjected to declines The Address-Mr. Decore in prices, as was the experience in the hungry thirties. He is subjected to weather con- ditions such as hail, drought, early frost, bad harvesting weather and, as was the case last year, excessive moisture. We are all aware of the serious crop failure experienced in the three prairie provinces in 1954, especially in the central and northern parts, and we can hardly expect to have another crop failure without disastrous results. Some reference was made during the course of the debate to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act. I believe that act, which came into existence in 1939, is a great thing and a wonderful idea, but I agree again with the hon. member for Rosthern that in view of present conditions the payments should be broadened. I might go a step further. I pointed out a moment ago that another crop failure in the three prairie provinces would be disastrous to the farmers, and I wonder whether the government would not give consideration to seeing whether the farmers would not agree to an increase in the contri- bution they make. At the present time it is 1 per cent. It could very well be raised to 3 per cent or even more. Perhaps some arrangement could be entered into with the provinces whereby, through the co-operation of the governments of the prov- inces and the federal government the farmer, in the event of a crop failure, would obtain much greater assistance than he is able to get at the present time. I would be glad if the leaders of the farm organizations would give this matter serious thought. Incidentally, I regard the farm organizations as most desirable and necessary, because their leaders have the opportunity to study various prob- lems, to make suggestions and to advise gov- ernments, provincial or federal. For that reason I should like to know the feeling of the farm organizations about the suggestion I have made with respect to the Prairie Farm Assistance Act. What I really want to bring to the atten- tion of the house and the government is another problem which I consider to be serious, and which we are being confronted with in the farming communities. I am of course referring to tle great difficulty that young men and women must overcome if they want to start farming. We realize that it requires a lot of capital, and because of lack of capital it is difficult for these young men or other people who are interested to make a start. We all realize that the very high cost of machinery as well as the very high cost of land probably requires a minimum investment, in bur area at least, of $15,000 to start a farm. There are many people who wish to make a start who just do not have that kind of money. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Decore When my grandfather came to this country some 60 years ago he was able to obtain a homestead upon the payment of a $10 fee. We are now living in a different age, how- ever, and under different conditions. I think we still have enough of the pioneering spirit left in us, but as I say it still requires a lot of capital. You will find instances of families where there are four or five boys, and these families are able only to set one boy up farm- ing. The other lads just are not able to make a start. They must move into some industrial centre such as Hamilton or Toronto in order to find a job. What about the farm hands who are em- ployed on salary? It is most difficult for them to save enough money to be able to make a start in farming. The same thing applies to many of our newcomers. Why should many of these people who have the qualifications and the desire find it necessary to move into industrial centres? There was a time when industrial centres were able to absorb these people, but often they only add to the problem of unemployment. If I may digress for a moment, one of the serious problems we have in the prairie prov- inces is the lack of a self-sustaining popula- tion. If you were to compare the 1941 census with the census of 1951, which is the last census, you would find that in Alberta, although there was an apparent gain of some 140,000 people during that period, actually it was not a true picture of the situation because that figure does not take into account a very important factor, namely the natural increase. When I speak of the natural in- crease I am referring to the number of births in excess of the number of deaths. We have very accurate figures in that respect. When you take these figures into account you will find that the net loss of population in Alberta for that ten-year period was 9,500. That is not very serious, but if you take the provinces of Manitoba and Saskatchewan the figures are much more serious and disastrous. In Manitoba the net loss of population was over 65,000. In the province of Saskatchewan there was a net loss of over 200,000. There- fore, you will readily see that the net loss of population in the three prairie provinces during that period from 1941 to 1951 was over a quarter of a million. This shows that we not only have failed in that period to attract people, but have failed to even keep those people who were already there. Many of ithese people have moved into industrial centres because they are areas where there is a great population, and a greater population offers better opportunities. My point is that, whether in the prairie provinces or in any other province of Canada [Mr. Decore.] it is our young men and women who wish to go into farming and who have the neces- sary experience and desire who should be given an opportunity to remain on the land. I believe they would be able to make a much more valuable contribution to the wealth of this country if they were encouraged to re- main on the farms where they desire to be. The fact is that it is almost impossible for a man to make a start in farming because of the amount of capital that must be involved. What can be done about it? I can only off er a suggestion. May I point out that at one time it was impossible for many Cana- dians to own their own homes, and then along came the national housing plan. That plan was by no means perfect. It still probably needs changes. Some changes have already been proposed by the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll). But the fact is through the operation of this act thousands of people in towns and cities became home owners who otherwise never would have been able to own a home. What actually happened was that a scheme or a plan was set into motion without any risk on the part of the government or on the part of the lending institutions. It is not a case of a handout. It is a plan which was put into motion and which has brought a benefit to thousands and thousands of people in this country. I therefore ask why there should not be a similar plan for our young men and women who wish to go into farming. I am not suggesting handouts. Some of you will say we already have legislation which tends to assist the farmers, such as that setting up the Canadian farm loan board or the Farm Improvement Loans Act. This legislation is intended to assist those people who have already made a start in farming. It is a case of enabling them to buy better equipment, improve their homes, or purchase additional land. But as far as I know there is nothing on our statute books which would tend to help the people who wish to make a start on the farm, along the lines of the national housing scheme. Mr. Speaker, a plan similar to the National Housing Act, possibly with the co-operation of the provincial governments, could be, I think, brought into existence. Let me point out that we have already the basic machinery to set up this kind of a plan. We have the V.L.A. offices in various provinces. They already have the know-how, the knowledge to deal with these matters. Since there is great room for expansion of our agricultural industry in this country I do not think we want these people who are suited for farming and who have a wide background of experience in that occupation to go into JANUARY 19, 1955 something else when they are desirous of going into farming. I do hope the govern- ment will give this matter very careful con- sideration. Mr. A. B. Patterson (Fraser Valley): It is not my intention today, Mr. Speaker, to con- tribute unnecessarily to the prolongation of this debate. However, there are a number of matters of vital concern to the residents of Fraser Valley, which electoral district it is my honour to represent. Therefore I shall endeavour to present them and deal with them as briefly as possible, while stressing them as vigorously as I believe their impor- tance and urgency would warrant. As you are no doubt aware, the economy of the Fraser valley is quite diversified, and the problems to which I shall refer today have to do with different aspects of our economy. A great part is played in my riding by those who are engaged in the fishing industry, and during the past several weeks it has been my privilege to discuss with them some of the problems with which they are currently faced. I should like first of all to refer to the closure regulations which are affecting them at the present time. I believe that as these regulations are imposed they will bring additional hardship on our people in this industry. Last year the department announced that the closure on commercial fishing in the Fraser river above New Westminster bridge would be in effect on September 16, as a conservation measure. Following strong pro- tests this decision was altered and the closure date for 1954 was set at October 8, for 1955 at September 30 and for 1956 at September 15. This modification was welcomed by the fishermen in this area, and in a letter to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Sinclair) I expres- sed the hope that after further consideration and investigation it might not be necessary to apply the earlier closures as set out in the statement. Regarding the effectiveness of the closure measures last fall, I should like to read a short paragraph from the brief submitted by the gill net section of the Pacific fishermen and allied trades union. It states with respect to closure: At the time the suggestion contained in article 5 appeared our organization sent a brief to the federal minister of fisheries and also told him at an interview in Vancouver that the proposed mea- sure would not only work a very great hardship on the fishermen and the businessmen of the area, but that the measure would not have the desired effect, i.e., to increase the number of parent fish reaching the local streams between New West- minster and Mission. There being no pink salmon run to the Fraser this year, commercial fishing was allowed to October 8 and then closed supposedly to conserve the chum salmon. Our contention was fully borne out by the fact that up to December 1, The Address-Mr. Patterson (when all commercial fishing automatically closed by custom in past years in the Fraser river) the showing of chums in the local streams mentioned was the poorest in history, showing plainly that the stopping of fishing above New Westminster bridge had no bearing on the matter. Therefore I suggest that further considera- tion be given to this matter. As I have already said, I hope that in the future earlier closures such as have been suggested will not be imposed. There was also the suggestion that the closure would prevent the taking of a poor grade of fish, which would obtain above this specified point in the river. In this con- nection I would call attention to two letters, one of which is written by the secretary of this union to the Johnston Fishing and Packing Company of New Westminster, British Columbia. It states: Gentlemen, the directors of the gill net section of our union are desirous of obtaining information as to the procedure used in handling salmon caught above New Westminster bridge. As you prob- ably know, there have been a lot of loose state- ments as to the quality of salmon caught in this area and in order to arrive at the facts of the case we would be very much obliged if your company could answer the questions listed below. 1. In deliveries of salmon from your collectors to your plant are the salmon caught and collected above New Westminster bridge kept entirely sep- arate at all times from salmon caught and collected in other parts of district 1? 2. In the process of canning salmon at your plant is a separate code mark used to differentiate between salmon caught above New Westminster bridge and salmon caught In other parts of district 1? 3. Does the government laboratory require certi- fication from your company as to the place or origin of any parcel of canned salmon submitted by your company for inspection? 4. What percentage of this year's total pack was of grade "b" quality which was canned at your plant? Thanking you in advance for this and other information which may occur to you as pertinent to the quality of salmon caught above New West- minster bridge, I am, Yours sincerely, F. ROLLEY, Secretary. In reply they received the following letter from the Johnston Fishing and Packing Com- pany: Pacific Fishermen and Allied Trades Union, 298 Main St., Vancouver 4, B.C. Attention Mr. Fred Rolley, Dear Sir: Replying to yours of the 4th instant in which you ask four questions dealing with the Fraser river fishing operations, our answer to the first three is "No" and to the fourth "None". Therefore we have a picture of the situa- tion as it exists, relative to the suggestion and contention that above the New West- minster bridge the fish are of poorer quality. Another matter of concern to the fishermen is that while the maximum length of gill 352 HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Patterson nets for use in the Fraser river is only 150 evident in the districts of Kent, Nicomen Island, fathoms, that allowed in the past in other Matsqui and Pitt Meadows. On Nicomen jsland theDepartment of Public Works has had to move a areas, and for seiners, is 200 fathoms. Fisher- road located outside the dike bacl from the river men have told me that 150 fathom nets are bank three times within a year. Remedial action only about 50 per cent effective, as the nets will have to be taken.To find a solution to the problems which should have a tendency to gather, whereas on the attempt to control the cause, la not a simple matter. other hand 200 fathom nets remain at approx- it will require comprehensive engineering investiga- imately their full length. In this respect tion and study.Corrective measures are beyond the scope of these men are wondering why gill nets are ail local districts. The subject is of importance both to be reduced to 150 fathoms while no reduc- to British Columbia and Canada. tion is contemplated for the seiners. There In the one district of Kent I understand is also dissatisfaction over the fact that while 1200 acres of valuable agricultural land have gill netters are under constant and close been lost. At the present time farms are inspection, little if anything is being done to in immediate danger as the process of erosion enforce the regulations with respect to the continues. At one point the river threatens seiners. to break through the bank completely and Then I have one further observation to cut another channel. If this were to happen, make about the fishing industry. Last year a not only would it be disastrous to the farm- statement was made to the effect that a num- ers but it is questionable whether navigation ber of reconstructed seiners were to be per- would be possible through that section at mitted into Canada and given some tax low water. concessions. They were required to spend at least two years in the deep-sea fishing and estimate that the cost of the required industry. It is now brought to my attention work would be in the neighbourhood of that last fall at least one of these vessels $43,500. The municipality is committed to was reported fishing right up to the very $7,000 for river bank work during the cur- mouth of the river. The gill netters of the rent year, and it is completely beyond the Fraser river are concerned about this and ability of the district to assume further other problems to which I have referred, and responsibilities at the present time. The are of the opinion that a concerted effort is nature of the problem is such that further being made, by restrictive measures imposed delay in its solution will be disastrous not against small and independent fishermen, t3 only to the few farmers near the bank but force them out of the industry, so that further also to the entire community. benefits will accrue to the large company- I might say in this connection that the owned seine boats. natural process of erosion is tremendously I call these matters to the attention of the aggravated by the passage of tug boats. These minister and suggest that he will have to do boats keep close to the bank in order to miss a lot of fast talking-perhaps faster than the strong currents, and one can stand and usual-to convince fishermen that this is not watch the wash as it strîkes the bank and so, if indeed it is not. then recedes, carrying soil with it. We do The second problem to which I would caîl appreciate the assistance given by the do- attention is that of river bank erosion and minion government in this matter, but we flood danger. It appears that at least some of urge that an effort be made to solve the whole these problems are characteristic of the Fraser problem permanently and allay the fears valley. I have not heard other members of those people who are in danger of losing dwell upon them at length in any large parts of their farms. What is true in respect, but I can say that they affect Kent is likewise true in the other areas I mightily the Fraser valley. Before com- have already mentioned, and also in Albion, ing to Ottawa for this session I spent further down the river. a good portion of one afternoon in 1 should like to refer again, as I did last the company of the reeve of Kent munie- year, to a matter which concerns the residents ipality, inspecting the river and protec- of another section of the Fraser valley, tion work at several locations. There cer- namely those who are living along the tainly is cause for immediate concern. From Vedder river. This matter bas been brought the annual report of J. L. MacDonald, pro- to the attention of the Department of North- vincial diking commissioner, contained in the ern Affairs and National Resources by the report of the land service for the year ended officiais of the department of agriculture of December 31, 1953, and reported in the the British Columbia government. The whole Fraser Valley Record, I quote the following: proposition has been presented, with aerial Within the memory of many the Fraser river has photographs and ail the data required, and washed away vast acres of fertile land, replacing we were hoping that some positive action homes and farms with gravel bars. This destructive action is continuous. The effects are especially would be taken in this respect. We had [Mr. Patterson.J JANUARY 19, 1955 hoped that the dominion government would be prepared to give some substantial assist- ance in this matter. The Vedder river is gradually filling up the channel, until at the present time we find that for possibly three miles there is very little channel, and the river just meanders here and there. It is quite possible, in the event of a flash flood, that the whole area would be under water. There are some valuable dominirn govern- ment works in that section. Even although it is the judgment of certain officials that they are not in danger at the moment, there is a definite possibility that they would be in danger in the event of a serious flood de- veloping. Therefore I again request that the Minister of Northern Affairs and National Resources further consider this matter and render some assistance in its solution. Once again it appears that the government does not intend to do anything toward raising the pensions of our senior citizens. I have listened to the speeches of hon. members from day to day, and the fact that very few have even referred to this matter has given me some cause for surprise. I believe the senior citizens of our country are deserving of some real consideration at the present time. It appears that many of those citizens who have worn themselves out in building up our great country are to be forced to spend their re- maining days in actual want, and that certainly most of them are in far from com- fortable circumstances. The governments of British Columbia and Alberta have recognized the need for some action and are now supplementing the old age security payment by $15 a month. I understand that Sas- katchewan still holds to the $2.50, and the other provinces are not contributing anything in this regard. Last year this government balked at rais- ing the war veterans allowance because they said it would jeopardize the progress of their social welfare program, but we find this year they have introduced legislation to raise the war veterans allowance. I do not know how much the increase will be, but I certainly hope it will be substantial. We hope that if this government cannot find it possible to increase old age pensions at this session- we hope they do-they will be prepared next session to bring in legislation to give better consideration to those who are elderly, to enable them to meet their living costs. I have the honour to represent one of the great agricultural areas in British Columbia. One of the main problems confronting those engaged in certain aspects of agriculture in that area is the high prices they are forced to pay for feed grains. I have no quarrel with the prairie farmers in their endeavour 50433-23 The Address-Mr. Patterson to obtain a greater share of the national in- come. I believe it is coming to them; but the farmers in my area do object to paying a terrifically high price for products for which the farmer receives very little. For instance, I have been given to under- stand that the farmer receives approximately $28 a ton for feed wheat. When our poultry raisers in British Columbia purchase feed wheat it costs $68 to $70 per ton. The freight charge from Regina to Vancouver would be in the neighbourhood of $13.40 per ton. Someone somewhere is receiving 100 per cent profit. I believe this situation warrants investigation, for this problem is of vital concern to the farmers in the Fraser valley and is one to which I sincerely direct the attention of the government at this time. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, let me voice appreciation for the measures being intro- duced by the government this session. I suppose the proper psychological approach would be to think in terms of a motion of commendation, but I shall reserve that for later in the session. We welcome amendments to the War Vet- erans Allowance Act and the Veterans Benefit Act, although, as I have already intimated, we do not know to what extent the proposals will go. We would say that to be in any degree satisfactory the requests of the veter- ans organizations should be acceded to in full. I do not have to go into their requests in detail and Place them on record again. They are well known to every hon. member, and I would suggest that the government would be doing the minimum by meeting those requests. We are also appreciative of the amendment to the Unemployment Insurance Act. How- ever, as other hon. members have stated, there are still many inadequacies quite evi- dent in the legislation. There are still many who should be receiving benefits but who are classed as ineligible. A group of men came to see me several weeks ago and called to my attention the fact that despite their employ- ment with Buckerfield's Limited they were not eligible for unemployment insurance bene- fits. These men might be classed as a mar- ginal group. They are clipper operators and tow truck drivers, and therefore find them- selves somewhere in between agricultural workers and those engaged in industry. I submit that in all fairness these men should be eligible for unemployment insurance bene- fits the same as others who are engaged in operations conducted by Buckerfield's Limited. The disability pension legislation brought in last session and now proclaimed is wholly commendable but, as has already been stated, it is so restricted in its application that men who should be receiving assistance under the legislation are likewise ineligible. HOUSE OF COMMONS The Address-Mr. Cannon We are also appreciative of other things such as the proposal regarding blind pensions and the legislation authorizing loans to fisher- men similar to those provided to farmers under the Farm Improvement Loans Act. But again let me say that we are far from satis- fied with the situation in regard to the other matters I have mentioned, and I would earn- estly request that the attention of the respec- tive departments be called to those problems and something be done to rectify them. Mr. Charles Cannon (Iles-de-la-Madeleine): Mr. Speaker, at the opening of my remarks I wish to extend a most hearty welcome to the new Minister of Transport (Mr. Marler). I have had the honour of being one of his friends for some years, and I can assure hon. members, though it is something they will find out for themselves as the weeks go by, that in the new minister this house has made a very valuable acquisition indeed. His par- liamentary experience, which is extensive, will be an asset to us. Apart from that he is perfectly bilingual, and that will give him the opportunity of being courteous and capable in both languages. I am quite sure that as far as Magdalen islands are concerned we will have with him the same pleasant relationship we had with his predecessor, Hon. Lionel Chevrier. I also wish to welcome to this house a confrere from the Quebec bar, the hon. mem- ber for St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Richard- son); also a confrere from the Ontario bar, the hon. member for Toronto Trinity (Mr. Carrick), who seconded the motion for the address in reply to the speech from the throne. This brings me to the pleasant task of congratulating both the mover (Mr. Leduc) and the seconder of the address in reply to the speech from the throne. (Translation): I congratulate the mover of the address (Mr. Leduc) on the fine way in which he carried out his task. He remained truc to the fine traditions of his predecessors who spoke in French in the house and he was a credit not only to his language but also to his province. (Text): It may be noted that after a Toronto lawyer moved the address last year, another Toronto lawyer seconds it this year, and I can only repeat what I said to his predecessor last year, the hon. member for York Centre (Mr. Hollingworth), that he acquitted himself very well indeed and fully measured up to the standard we expect from a member of the Ontario bar. Mr. Fleming: It is a good city. [Mr. Patterson.] Mr. Cannon: Yes, but you may not be so well pleased with the remainder of my remarks. Mr. Martin: Some might take exception to that observation. Mr. Cannon: I am sorry I cannot con- gratulate the members of the opposition who have taken part in this debate so far. In reading over their speeches in Hansard I made notes on certain passages to which I would like to draw the attention of hon. members. To begin with, we find that the Acting Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Rowe), as reported at page 22 of Hansard, con- gratulated some members of his party on having obtained certain things frorn the government. For example, he congratulates the hon. member for Royal (Mr. Brooks) for having his plea heeded on behalf of the war veterans. He congratulates the hon. member for Vancouver-Quadra (Mr. Green) on his success with regard to Ripple Rock. He also congratulated the hon. member for Queens (Mr. MacLean) for having obtained a new ferry service, and the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) and the hon. member for Ontario (Mr. Starr) on having obtained amendments to the Unem- ployment Insurance Act. Then a few lines further on he states: Can it be that this government has grown so strong that they think opposition is unnecessary, so strong that they think opposition has very little place in the present trend of events? Well, Mr. Speaker, I may not have learned my logic at the same place as the Acting Leader of the Opposition, but I would draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that after having quoted several instances in which this government has taken representa- tions by the opposition into consideration, the hon. gentleman immediately reproaches the government vehemently with not taking notice of the opposition and carrying on as if there were no opposition at all. To put it mildly that logic is not very consistent. We on this side of the house could hardly believe our ears when we heard the Acting Leader of the Opposition in his motion pro- pose that health insurance should be intro- duced at the earliest possible moment. All through the years we have heard the Con- servative party oppose the proposition that we should have health insurance. They have wrapped it up with the rest of the social security measures of the Liberal party which they have labelled socialism, and they have always combated these suggestions. If I were a Conservative-and I am not, thanks be to God-I would be discouraged to hear the JANUARY 19, 1955 acting leader of my party throwing aside Conservative principles for which they have fought for so long and trying to be more liberal than the Liberals, saying that he wishes to bring in a measure of health insur- ance that the Liberals have been talking about since 1919. An hon. Member: Just talking about it. Mr. Cannon: I know it is a long time. I just mention it in order to show that it is a matter the Liberals have been suggesting for a long time. Mr. Fleming: At election time. Mr. Cannon: I say that the people of the country will not be taken in by the late con- version of the Acting Leader of the Opposition and by the late conversion of the Conserva- tive party. I say that the people of the country will not give their votes to the Con- servative party because of that late conver- sion, but rather they will count on the Liberal party which bas always been in the forefront when social security measures were concerned. As I say, they will count on the Liberal party to give them health insurance when the time for it bas corne. Mr. Fleming: When? Mr. Cannon: When the budget of the federal government will permit us to give it. They know it was we who seriously sug- gested it in the first place, and they know it is we who will carry it out when the time comes. Mr. Fleming: When will that be? Mr. Cannon: The hon. member knows as well as I do that at this time we cannot increase social security measures because of the great load that military expenses place on the budget. We all hope that eventu- ally we shall be able to diminish these expenses. In the meantime it is not possible to increase social security measures. Mr. Fleming: May I ask the hon. member a question? Mr. Knowles: Will it be in the year 2000? Mr. Cannon: Before that. Mr. Knowles: Good. Mr. Fleming: If it is not going to come into effect for perhaps another 36 years, does the hon. member not think it only fair to the Canadian people that the Liberal party should stop talking about it and stop making these idle, empty promises? Mr. Cannon: It is not the Liberal party that is talking about it; it is the Conservative party. 50433-23J The Address-Mr. Cannon Mr. Fleming: We are talking about cam- paign promises made at election time by the Liberal party. Mr. Cannon: It was the Acting Leader of the Opposition who was talking about it. It was you who brought it up, not I. Mr. Fleming: You have been talking about it at every election within living memory. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cannon: You will be surprised. In any event, it will come up much too soon for your liking. I can tell you that. Mr. Rowe: You changed your mind rapidly. Mr. Fleming: That is some more of your logic. Mr. Macdonnell: Is that an announcement made, through you, by the minister? Mr. Cannon: The minister makes no announcements through me. He is quite capable of ma-king his own announcements. Mr. Rowe: That whisper from the health department changed your mind very quickly, that it may not take 36 years. Mr. Speaker: Order. (Translation): Mr. Cannon: And now, Mr. Speaker, I come back to the French language in order to direct a few remarks to the hon. member for Quebec West (Mr. Dufresne) who granted to himself a certificate- Mr. Gauthier (Portneuf): He is absent. Mr. Cannon: Unfortunately, he is absent but, nevertheless, he can read my remarks in Hansard. On page 225 of Hansard, he awarded himself, in a clear and intelligible voice and with abundant gestures, a certifi- cate to be valid only at the end of this session, that of having accomplished his duty. Mr. Gauthier (Porineuf): He has foresight. Mr. Cannon: After referring to the end of the session, the hon. member stated: I will then have- That is to say, at the end of this session. -the great and noble satisfaction of having done my duty. Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that ridicule is fatal to none in Canada, as the hon. member appears to enjoy good health. (Text): Mr. Speaker, I can congratulate even less the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam (Mr. Regier). I was not present in the house when he made his remarks about the province HOUSE OF COMMONS Tihe Address-Mr. Cannon of Quebec, but I read his remarks, and I could hardly believe my eyes when I read them. At page 121 of Hansard the hon. member is reported as having said: I contend that there is no part of Canada that is as ripe for advances by the communist party as the province of Quebec. That, Mr. Speaker, is the greatest exhibi- tion of colossal ignorance that I have ever heard or read in all my life. I would remind the hon. member that apart from the labour progressive party, under which name the communist party masquerades, the party in Canada which is closest to the communist party is the C.C.F. Mr. Knowles: Now who is showing his ignorance? Mr. Cannon: Before be talks about there being any danger of the communist party becoming powerful in our province the bon. member had better look to the other prov- inces where the C.C.F. party is in power or gets a large vote. It is in those provinces that there is a great danger of the communist party taking a foothold, certainly not in the province of Quebec. In Quebec we have respect for constituted authority; we have a true religious sentiment, and there is no danger of the communist party obtaining a foothold in our province. The bon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam, in order to illustrate his point, again at page 121 of Hansard is reported to have said: In the city of Montreal the communist party polled about as many votes as the C.C.F. In place of saying that the communist party polled about as many votes as did the C.C.F. in the city of Montreal, I think it would be fairer to say that the communist party polled as few votes as did the C.C.F. in the city of Montreal, because the C.C.F. never polled many votes in our province. It has an unblemished record of never having elected a representative in the province of Quebec either to the federal house or to the provincial house. Mr. Winch: What about Fred Rose? Mr. Cannon: He was a communist. Mr. Winch: That is what I say. He was from your province. Mr. Cannon: You are a member of the C.C.F. Mr. Winch: Thank goodness. Mr. Cannon: Are you identifying yourself with him? That illustrates the point I just made, namely that your party is closest to the communist party. [Mr. Cannon.] Mr. Ellis: That is why the communists sup- ported the Liberals in 1945. Mr. Cannon: I wish to turn my attention to the third party of the opposition, namely the Social Credit party. From my county I have been receiving letters cut out from the official newspaper of the Social Credit party in our province, L'Avenir. These letters, which are printed in the newspaper with the caption "Send them to your member", "En- voyez-les a votre députe", are accompanied by bunches of signatures that have been obtained in the constituency of Iles-de-la- Madeleine by the emissary of the Social Credit party who went down there for that purpose. These letters asked that military expenditures be reduced in order to double family allowances. They contain such dema- gogic phrases as "Families need more bread than guns to bring up children". I should like the leader of the Social Credit party to tell the house and the country -because I say the country is entitled to a declaration from the man who is leader of a party that claims to be a national party- whether or not he is in favour of Canadian armament, whether or not he is in favour of Canada living up to the obligations it under- took with the rest of the western European nations to resist communism, whether he is in favour of Canpda living up to the obliga- tions that it undertook under NATO. I say that if he is in favour of these things the Social Credit party cannot in good faith tell the people of my county or of any other county that this country ought to reduce military expenditures in order to double family allowances. I say that if the Social Credit party is in favour of our living up to our obligations under NATO and our obligations to the other free countries allied with us, its leader should denounce in the house and repudiate what has been done in my constituency in the name of the Social Credit party. I shall look forward to hearing him make a statement on that point. An hon. Member: Who is in carpet slippers now? Mr. Cannon: To the people of my con- stituency I say that first things must come first. If we are to preserve family allowances we have to preserve our liberty and our way of life. The old Roman saying, si vis pacem, para bellum, was never truer than it is today -if you want peace, prepare for war. It is JANUARI absolutely necessary that we be strong. Everybody knows that. The leader of the Social Credit party knows it. The emissaries of his party who went to my constituency to try to subvert the people there and make them sign silly petitions know perfectly well, as he and other members of the party here know, that these expenditures must be made. He knows that we have to be strong and that we have to combat communism if we are to retain our way o! life and our liberty. He knows also that our liberty and our way o! if e are essentials that we must have before we can have any family allowances 19i. 1955 357 The Address-Mr. Cannon at ail, let alone -double famlily allowances. 1 say to the people of my county that when the time cornes to increase family allowances the Liberal party will increase them. The Liberal party was the party that introduced family allowances in the first place, and it can be counted upon to increase them, when the revenues and wealth of the country permit us to do so. On motion of Mr. Cannon the debate was adj ourned. On motion of Mr. Howe (Port Arthur) the house adjourned at 5.56 p.m. HOUSE 0F COMMONS Thursday, January 20, 1955 The house met at 2.30 p.m. HOUSE 0F COMMONS FIRST REPORT 0F SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE Mr. Speaker: I have the honour to present the English and French versions of the first report of the special committee appointed to consider with Mr. Speaker the procedure of this house. If unanimous consent is ob- tained, concurrence might be asked later in this sitting. Some hon. Members: Agreed. HOUSING REPORTED RESTRICTION ON LOANS ON HOUSING NEAR AIRPORTS On the orders of the day: Mr. G. K. Fraser (Peterborough): I should like to ask a question of the Minister of Publie Works. WiUl the minister give the house more information with regard to the announcement that was in the press this morning that Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation is suspending ail boans on hous- Ing that is within one mile of an airport? Does this mean government airports, ail air- ports or just airports that jet planes will use or are expected to use? Hon. Robert H. Winters

House of Commons Debates Vol 1, Jan 7 to Feb 11, 1955

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