Name/Title
William Thoburn SpeechEntry/Object ID
2009.01.01Scope and Content
House of Commons Debates, First Session, 11 Parliament.
Speech of William Thoburn in the woolen industry April 13, 1909.
Found by Patrick and Caroline Oulette on Mothers farm in Lanark Villiage.
Transcription :
House of Commons Debates
FIRST SESSION-ELEVENTH PARLIAMENT
SPEECH
or
MR. W. THOBURN
OF THE /
WOOLLEN INDUSTRY
OTTAWA, TUESDAY, APRIL 13, 1909
Mr. WM. THOBURN (North Lanark). Mr. Speaker, as a new member of this House, I crave the indulgence of the mem- hers for a short time while 1 discuss this question in which I am so very much interested. The remarks which I have to make may not be clothed in that gram- matical form which is familiar to hon. members on both sides, owing to the fact that I have not been blessed with a col- lege education nor with a grammar school education, nor even with an ordinary com- mon -school education. I have had to earn my living since before I was ten years of age; so that if the hon. member for South Simcoe (Mr. Lennox) is a fair specimen of the farming community of this country. I claim to be a fair specimen of the working men of this country. Now, Mr. Speaker, the remarks which I have to make refer to a very large number of the working men, the working women, the working boys and the working girls of Canada who are engaged in the woollen, industry. My remarks are not made from a theoretical standpoint or from what I
715-1
have heard or road, but they are made from 28 years of hard practical experience. I have been here on several deputations to this government asking for a revision of the woollen tariff. I do not know whether the hon. Finance Minister is going to ask me before I am through what it is we want: if he is, I will answer him to the best of my ability. Although several deputations on behalf of the woollen industry have waited on the government during recent years, nothing has been done by the government other than to send to Great Britain a commissioner to investigate the causes of the difference in cost of manufacture in Great Britain and in Canada. I have the report of that commissioner, and I will say on behalf of the woollen manufacturers of Canada that we are thankful that the government have done even that much, because if they take the trouble to examine thia report, they will realize the great disadvantage under which the Canadian woollen manufacturers labour as compared with the woollen manufacturers of Great Britain. The report is addressed to Mr. John Mc-
any of the hon. members opposite have ever visited the manufacturing districts of Great Britain; but I have done so, and I know that it is a sorry sight to see the operatives coming out of these woollen mills, wearing wooden shoes and with shawls over their heads, not as well clad as the squaws of our country are. Compare this with the manner in which our operatives are clothed; compare the homes of these people in Bradford and other man- ufaeturing districts in Great Britain with the homes of the workers in woollen mills in Canada, and I do not think any member of this House would wish to see ,our opera- tives compelled to live in such , homes as those occupied by the operatives' these great manufacturing districts in Great Brit- ain. But I can say this also, give the Canadian working man the same chances as those enjoyed by the working man in the old country and he will produce goods faster and I think better. For some rea- son or other, we have to work faster in this country than they work in the old country. What the reasons may be, it is a little difficult to say, but I know, from [] I have seen, that the fact is as I state Pos- sibly, some of the hon. members opposite,! or some on this side of the House have travelled in Great Britain. If so, they can hardly help having noticed that the man- ner of working there is much slower than it is in this country. I went through Great Britain once in the harvest time, and I saw more help in one harvest field there than you would find in five harvest fields in this country. Help Is so cheap that there is no difficulty in getting abundance of it. One of the most amazing things- speaking from a Canadian standpoint-I saw in travelling through the British agri- cultural districts was a man ploughing in the field driving three horses, tandem I suppose every Canadian will know what I mean when I say ' tandem,' with two boys leading the horses. To the Canadian eye nothing could be much more ridiculous I will guarantee to take a Canadian boy of seventeen years old. put him behind the plough with a span of horses, and he will do more work in a day than that man was doing with his three horses and two boys There is the difference between the work man in Canada and the workman in Great Britain.
Hon. WM. PATERSON (Minister of CUS- toms). I should be sorry to interfere with the course of the hon. gentleman's (Mr Thoburn) argument, for, I know this is his maiden speech, and he is speaking well But, if he will permit me a question at this point. I would ask whether he has taken into calculation the very element of which he speaks ? The figures he gave were based on the weekly wages here and
in England. Does the Canadian manufacturer, with double the wages, get double the product out of his operatives? Does the hon. gentleman see what I mean ?
Mr. THOBURN. No. 1 do not quite catch it.
Mr. PATERSON. I understand the hon. gentleman's argument to be that a Cana- dian workman will produce far more work in a certain number of hours than an Eng- lish workman will produce. The hon. gentleman's comparison, I think, was with reference to the weekly wages of the oper- ative in Canada and the operative in Eng- land. That has a bearing on the case be- cause if the Englishman who gets $6 a week turns out, we will say, 10 yards while the Canadian who receives $12 a week turns into 50 yards, the product is the same as far as labour is concerned.
Mr. TH0BURN." Such a difference is an utter, impossibility because the product of an employee in a woollen factory is principally turned out by machinery; it is not the same as two labourers working in competition it would be impossible to get the machine to turn out double the quantity in this country that it would in England.
Mr. SPROULE. The machine runs at the same rate in England as it does here.
Mr. PATERSON. Then the difference in wages is nothing.
Mr. THOBURN. There is little hand work in a woollen mill, it is practically all machine work. I was struck by an item which I read in the 'Glasgow News' in re- ference to our Canadian athletes. In dis- cussing the Canadian curlers, it said:
One cannot attempt to explain away the Canadian superiority. These are the real wizards of the game. The Canadian curler is the product of the Canadian climate and be cannot be produced north of the Tweed.
Whatever applies to the Canadian athe- lete as the result of our climate, applies in every sense of the word to the Canadian workman. Give the Canadian workman the same chance as the workman of Great Britain and I think he will defy the world as to the quality and the quantity of the work he will turn out.
Mr. FIELDING. What does the hon. gentleman mean when he says to give the Canadian workman the same chance? I do not want to interrupt my hon. friend who is speaking with great interest and with a knowledge of the subject, but what does the Canadian workman lack?
Mr. THOBURN. He lacks labour. All I ask the Finance Minister is to give labour and that is all the Canadian work- man is asking for. It is on their behalf that I plead this afternoon, on behalf of
the thousands of workmen in the woollen industry who are idle.
Mr. FIELDING. I do not see the point of my hon. friend's argument, I confess,
Mr. THOBURN. Another mistaken idea is prevalent in this country, that if you increase the duty you will increase the cost of the article to the consumer. That does not always follow. J am not speaking on behalf of woollen manufacturers generally in making this statement but I speak on my own behalf. 1 am not so very' anxious whether I get an increased price for the article I am producing; al) I am begging for is a market for the article I am producing. Let me illustrate. Supposing that one of the ministers was engaged in manufacturing, that he had a firm producing $3,000,000 worth of goods and that he was making fair living and a reasonable profit. Then suppose that, say, through the introduction of a preferential clause, $ 500.000 worth of such goods as he was producing were al- lowed to enter this country and to get into the hands of his customers Not because they got- any more for the goods than he did. but from the very fact of their coming into this country, they would deprive him of one half of his customers, they would deprive one half of his workmen of their employment and what benefit is derived? That is the point I want to make so far as the increased duty is concerned. The hon. gentleman asks, what are you asking? I have not yet asked an increased duty but that is what I am aiming at, not so much that it will increase the cost of the article but that it will give a market for the goods I am producing. Let us go a little further. Supposing the re-arrangement of the woollen tariff did mean an addition of 5 cents a yard in the cost of the cloth for a suit of clothes-and even one half of five cents a yard would be a handsome profit for a woollen manufacturer who had a large factory. But suppose it did make a difference of five cents a yard, what difference would that make to the man buying a suit of clothes? Just 35 cents. How many men in Canada would object to paying 35 cents extra for a suit of clothes provided you give all the men in this country plenty of work? Not one in the whole Dominion. It would be almost a calamity to the people of Canada if they had to depend entirely upon foreign woollen manufacturers. We know from experience that when all Canadian factories of any kind are closed the cost of the article is bound to advance. Let me give vou an illustration from practical experience. From 1870 to 1880 I was engaged in mercantile business and hon. members will remember that at that time the burning question was the tariff on sugar. There were only one or two sugar refineries in Canada but they were producing a first
class article. The wily government of the United States, in an effort to close out that industry in Canada, paid the American sugar refineries an export bounty on sugar What was the result? In 1877 we had to sell what we called a good article of brown sugar at 10 cents a pound and we thought we were selling it cheap. We sold it at 10 cents so long as there was competition be- tween the Canadian manufacturer and the American manufacturer The Canadian manufacturers waited on the government again and again in an effort to have that tariff so arranged that they could, compete with the American manufacturer who was receiving an export bounty, but they could get no [illegible] from the government of that day. and not a single Canadian refinery continued running they had to close their doors. What was the result? It was utterly
impossible for us to sell a pound of brown sugar at that time for less than 12 cents. It may be a matter of surprise to hin. members of this House perhaps to know that only so recently as 1877 they paid 12$ cents a pound of brown sugar. But, such is the fact.
Mr 8PROULE And after the duty was put on it vms*kold at from four to five cents a pound?
Mr. THOBURN. Yes. You know what the prices have been since you have had good healthy competition. So much with reference to competition in the manufacture of woollen goods. My contention has always been that the Canadian manufacturer is as groat a benefit to the Canadian farmer as it is possible tor one interest to be a benefit to another. I do not know that I was ever more interested in listening to a speech than I was the other night when the hon. member for Cape Breton (Mr. McKenzie) was advocating so zealously and so well the protection of the Nova Scotia coal mines. I thought, Sir, that that was one of the most patriotic speeches, one of the best speeches from a protectionist standpoint that I have heard for a long time, and I can only say that if it were to come to a vote in this House, although I am a consumer of coal in my business, I would not stand up in my place only once, but I would stand up twice, and, if the Speaker would allow me, I would stand up three times to vote with the hon. member for Cape Breton. Let me quote a few of his words:
While it is -the interest of this country that capita) should be safeguarded and capitalists the world over to given the assurance that in Canada we have a parliament and parliamen- tarians who always keep their eye upon the best interests of those who are willing to in- vest their capital in this country it is equally in our interest that we should likewise keep in mind the men, women and children who are dependent upon this particular industry in
forget it, that no fine woo) imported info the Dominion of Canada has decreased in price in the same ratio as has Canadian wool. I can come to no other conclusion than that the reason for that is that we have closed up the mills in this country that were using Canadian wool : It is worth to-day only from 12 to 16 cents as compared with 52 cents a few years ago.
Now, I am thankful to the members of
this House for the very kind attention they have paid to my remarks. I do earnestly beseech of the government to rearrange the woollen tariff, by increasing the ad valorem duty a little, and by putting a specific duty on the shoddy goods coming to this country, so as to give some relief to the working class for whom I am pleading this afternoon.Collection
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Apr 13, 1909Archive Size/Extent
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Date(s): April 13, 1909Location
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